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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    And I wish Irens had put a boom on Romilly!!! She'll only be using 70% of that sail area downwind.

    MIK

    Best wishes
    Michael
    Somebody did, check this out: </title> <TITLE>Burnett Yacht Design - Custom cruising yacht design and consultancy


    more pics here: Burnett Yacht Design - Custom cruising yacht design and consultancy
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

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  3. #17
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    And shifted over to a balance lug rig rather than the standing lug! Interesting

  4. #18
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    Nigel Irens does not like the balanced lug because of the bad tack. He claims to have experienced a significant performance hit on the bad tack. His solution is to use a movable pole which he calls a bearing out spar. That does not seem like a very practical solution unless you are sailing on one reach for hours on end. Nigel's discussion here: Roxane & Romilly: Nigel Irens on Booms

    I also stumbled on this discussion where they were experimenting with moving the boom back to minimize the mast effects on the bad tack but then the downhaul lost all vanging ability. The solution they came up with looks a lot like a vang/downhaul combination that we have kicked around on these forums.
    Roxane & Romilly: Booms and Romilly

    It's interesting to see other sailors working through these issues. Seems like the Roxanne and Romilly boats are similar to the Goat in that they are trying to push a traditional rig to a higher level of performance.
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  5. #19
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    New Hampshire
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    Interesting article, somewhat. Here is a good picture of what happens when the downhaul gets too far forward and the boat is running-- obvious to see the complete loss of vanging ability.



    From the perspective of being inside the boat the boom is waaaaay up there!

  6. #20
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    That's exactly what the Romilly dudes were experiencing and it makes sense. That sail shape is a recipe for a wipeout

    I've been wondering if the opposite extreme would be good at stabilising the boat on a run. I'm still struggling with death rolls when blasting off the wind. No problems until whitecaps appear. Once I see whitecaps with full sail up, I'm getting on plane and in big fun mode but also in major risk of wipeout.

    Imagine if the bleeter was adjustable and the vanghaul fairly far back. On a run you could ease up on the bleater and haul in on the vanghaul so that a lot more of the sail was in front of the mast. Would that stabilise the boat?

    Thinking about this some more it seems like if we make the bleater adjustable I'm back to the complexity of downhaul in front and vang behind the mast setup of the Keyhaven scows, hmmm...

    What's all this got to do with laser rigs on a Goat? I dunno, sorry for the hijack
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  7. #21
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    Jun 2009
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    New Hampshire
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonLew View Post

    What's all this got to do with laser rigs on a Goat? I dunno, sorry for the hijack
    There's no discipline on this forum, we have running conversations EVERYWHERE! hahaha finding key nuggets is becoming an adventure!

    It's going to come down to how simple/complicated the skipper wants to keep things, really. I'm looking forward to vanging my downhaul a little more with the bleeter and see what happens.

  8. #22
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    Jul 2011
    Location
    Finland
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    Speaking about vang, is not the tension very much differing between the tacks as the boom is either in front of the mast or behind and the attachment point is not moving?

  9. #23
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonLew View Post

    Imagine if the bleeter was adjustable and the vanghaul fairly far back. On a run you could ease up on the bleater and haul in on the vanghaul so that a lot more of the sail was in front of the mast. Would that stabilise the boat?

    Thinking about this some more it seems like if we make the bleater adjustable I'm back to the complexity of downhaul in front and vang behind the mast setup of the Keyhaven scows, hmmm...

    What's all this got to do with laser rigs on a Goat? I dunno, sorry for the hijack
    Hi Simon

    In my experience it does add stability downwind. I had an adjustable bleater attached to the deck in front of the mast early last year and used to haul the boom quite far forward downwind by releasing the bleater and hauling on the vang. From memory it was at least an extra 30cm, maybe a tad more. The effect is similar to having a jib as you are adding balance to the rig.

    The only issue is that it adds considerable complexity and some very minor binding. This didn't worry me, but am wondering now if the experience would be improved by the new method of attaching it to the mast at boom level?

    Another thing. moving the boom forward downwind lowers the boom, so you will have to duck a lot more when you gybe. Also, the end of the boom is much lower, so if you are sailing waves you need to watch that you don't dip it in, as it could be disastrous.

    Upwind I was able to haul on the bleater to pull the boom back and then when set, apply vang. With only about 15cm of sail in front of the mast, my helm was better balanced. My boat has a tendency to have lee helm upwind, which I think has to do with my sail, which is quite flat. This arrangement was the initial motivation to cure the problem after everything else did not fix it.

  10. #24
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    Location
    Florida USA
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    Hi Bruce, sounds like experimenting with an adjustable bleater is in my future. If it works it would be easy to set up a micro 4 part purchase along the boom, back to the mast and then lead the tail down to a cam cleat somewhere on the partners near the mast.
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  11. #25
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    Hi Simon

    Just be aware that it takes a bit of fiddling as if you want to tighten the bleater, you need to release the vanghaul. Also, you need to have the vanghaul attachment on the boom further back.

    (From Boatmik: Woodeneye is talking about his original system in the photos. Not the current simpler bleeter setup. But his more complicated system allowed the adjustment that Simonlew mentioned)

    later on after these pics were taken I had both vang and bleater lines coming back to clam cleats on the mid seat. Also, the bleater attached to deck in front of the mast. I used the cleats with the built in fairleads.

    This pic shows how far forward you can get the boom.
    Attachment 222623

    And here it is in the hauled back position for upwind:
    Attachment 222624

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonLew View Post
    Nigel Irens does not like the balanced lug because of the bad tack. He claims to have experienced a significant performance hit on the bad tack. His solution is to use a movable pole which he calls a bearing out spar. That does not seem like a very practical solution unless you are sailing on one reach for hours on end. Nigel's discussion here: Roxane & Romilly: Nigel Irens on Booms
    Hi Simon

    Well, we all know that Irens is wrong. The performance hit on the "bad tack" as he calls it is minimal and so insignificant that it doesn't matter. The performance hit of not having a boom is so much more! Just a bit of misguided thinking which he could correct by reading up here!

    One of the other things we have found is that full length battens don't work. I suspect that the battens on Romily would have caused severe distortion on the starboard tack which skewed his thinking.

    However, the high aspect rig does look nice, but really only possible if the spars are low weight and carbon fibre.

    I wonder if a lightweight boom similar to that used on the modern catamaran rigs would work with the Romily rig?

    Attachment 222627

  13. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Queenstown New Zealand
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    Trying to get back to laser rig options...

    If you could get two laser rigs for free/next to free, I can see a "Laser Rig Yawl" working. The laser topmast is 3.6 m long, so just right for a mizzen. Cut the top of the laser sail off, re-hem the foot, and that's your mizzen sorted. Put the other rig up front in the normal position and off you go.

    Plusses of the yawl, it would correct the lee helm that David reports with the laser rig in the normal mast step.

    It would allow you to reef the foresail by wrapping it around the mast as the mizzen would correct for the excessive lee helm that otherwise results when you do that.

    With the two piece main mast, it would be a very compact rig that could fit nicely out of the way in the boat for 50-50 sail - oar cruising.

    Downside as Mik mentions is no halyard, inability to drop the sail on it's own. I could imagine lashing a three sided box on the rear side of bulkhead 2 with a mast step at the bottom. That way, you could walk the mast up and down and drop the sail by dropping the rig.

    Ian

  14. #28
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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Queenstown New Zealand
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    Here is an idea for stepping a laser mast behind bulkhead 2. Lash the three sided box in behind the bulkhead, perhaps with a locator pin or two to keep it from slipping around. It would let you walk the mast up rather than having to get it vertical before dropping it in the hole. Position further aft might fix the lee helm David mentioned, and it would let you change mast rake easily if you needed more adjustment to get the helm balanced.

    Ian

    Attachment 222634

  15. #29
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    Hi Bruce,

    (added later ... I really misread your post completely .. you were talking about your older system and explaining that it works .... sorry!)

    The bleeter I am envisioning is a simple piece of rope that goes around the mast and then ties to the front end of the boom. Because it is more or less horizontal it won't need any or much adjustment (hopefully)

    The line from the deck to the front of the boom won't be needed. It is not so good because with your setup there is no real reference point for setting up .. the boom can float forward and back and up and down. With a bleeter it can't move forward at all but is still free in the vertical plane.

    In terms of your setup ... the downforce on the boom will be the average of the two lines you have going down to the deck. So the effective point will be somewhere between them. You can apply the vanghaul to that point for a simplification and only one thing needing to be adjusted instead of two.

    I don't discount the system shown in your photos ... i know it has some advantages as moving the CE on the water ... but if we can pull off less twist with the same downhaul and the rope for the square lashing transposed to become the bleeter ... then ... that works well for the standard rig.

    The more knowledgeable will always push on to the next thing

    MIK
    Last edited by Boatmik; 7th Sep 2012 at 02:00 PM. Reason: misread the post I am replying to.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Hi Bruce,

    (added later ... I really misread your post completely .. you were talking about your older system and explaining that it works .... sorry!)

    The bleeter I am envisioning is a simple piece of rope that goes around the mast and then ties to the front end of the boom. Because it is more or less horizontal it won't need any or much adjustment (hopefully)

    The line from the deck to the front of the boom won't be needed. It is not so good because with your setup there is no real reference point for setting up .. the boom can float forward and back and up and down. With a bleeter it can't move forward at all but is still free in the vertical plane.

    In terms of your setup ... the downforce on the boom will be the average of the two lines you have going down to the deck. So the effective point will be somewhere between them. You can apply the vanghaul to that point for a simplification and only one thing needing to be adjusted instead of two.

    I don't discount the system shown in your photos ... i know it has some advantages as moving the CE on the water ... but if we can pull off less twist with the same downhaul and the rope for the square lashing transposed to become the bleeter ... then ... that works well for the standard rig.

    The more knowledgeable will always push on to the next thing

    MIK
    I totally agree with you, the newer bleater at boom level is much better. The line from the deck worked well, but it was a hassle to adjust as both lines needed to be adjusted at once. I just wanted to point out that if the bleater is adjustable, the vanghaul needs to be adjusted as well and it can be too much to have to do.

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