Thanks Thanks:  0
Needs Pictures Needs Pictures:  0
Picture(s) thanks Picture(s) thanks:  0
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 54
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,117

    Default Goat with Laser-like Rig

    Well ... it was an original option which I discontinued, but a recent builder, David Wait made up some standard adaptors and put a Laser style rig he had lying around in the Goat.

    He built the boat from a Clint Chase kit.

    He's been doing some club racing and is an experienced Laser sailor.

    He is also a bit bigger than us wimpy Australians at 250lbs which might be a nice advantage for the bigger GIS sail.

    His immediate problem is that he is worried about investing in the lug rig if it doesn't give the performance to match a conventional rig - maybe a bigger conventional sail on the existing spars.

    Anyway ... David writes

    Michael, this is a great boat. We are sailing and rowing around at 10,000 feet at our mountain home in Colorado. If you want any mountain view photos of GIS let me know. I have some follow up questions I would like your help with.



    I had an old aluminum mast with 85 sq ft Marconi sail at the house, and for no reason other than cost, I made adapters for the square holes in my boat and have been sailing her. She sails well enough but has slight lee helm, and is slower on all points than the laser that I sail with ( we both sail laser class in Denver when we can).



    I want to now build the final rig as indicated in the plans but am nervous that performance will not be what I am hoping for. I understand that the lug you propose will have great performance for the dollar, but I could have a new sail made for less money, and perhaps a longer boom. My question: is the lug going to perform better than a Marconi rig with cost aside? I want to build the lug, it is just a lot of money and I don't want to take a step backwards. My ultimate goal is to go to the races with my gis instead of my laser and turn some heads!! Will the lug point lower but have better VMG?

    2nd question. I am a big guy, about 250 ( way too big for the laser I know) and the bottom of the gis is slick. I am thinking about a hiking strap, but was not sure if the frames to take this load. Thoughts?

    Will the slight lee helm clear up with the lug rig? Seems like the CE might be farther back.

    Is the fastest way to sail her on a slight heal to prevent the bow thumping? Dead flat if no waves?

    I appreciate your time.
    It sounds like he is prepared to go for the lug if there is not performance detriment over the standard club Laser.

    My sense is that his objective of impressing people will be more certain given the good performance of the lug. But to compare against club Lasers?

    Luckily we have Bruce who sails Lasers and the Goat and has participated in a few races against the Lasers too. I seem to remember that two up he did rather better.

    Also it is a nice place for the tweaks to the rig we have been working on to get better vanging etc.

    MIK

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Age
    2010
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,117

    Default

    Here is part of an earlier email from David.

    I have completed a GIS from the plans i purchased from you, and a kit from Clint Chase. I have several questions I would appreciate your guidance on.

    1. I am a fairly competitive racer in several one design classes here in the rocky mountains. I intend to race in the handicap fleet Portsmouth rating with the GIS for the fun of something different than lasers, MCs, and Buccs. Apparently no one has logged the handicap numbers yet, but we can start getting them submitted. In order to enter these races without an existing number, I need a designers recommendation/estimate. Please consider and provide. (All windward leeward racing so please account for the tack angle of this rig)

    2. Do you recommend full battens, no battens, leach battens for your rig. It seems that lots of sail designers have differing thoughts on this.
    3. Any recommended US sail lofts that you feel make an exceptional sail for the GIS? Any to stay away from?
    I think the nicest USA sail has been SimonLew's. Can you give us the sailmaker and your price again Simon.



    http://www.flickr.com

    Also, for David, we reworked the reefs on the mainsail a bit making the first one smaller and the last one a little further down the sail so boom and yard don't clash too much.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Hunter Valley NSW
    Age
    64
    Posts
    1,759

    Default

    I don't think there is any question that the balanced lug rig of the GIS is a more powerful rig than the Laser rig, but is this a Laser rig we are comparing to? The Storer balanced lug is now quite a well sorted rig and it is surprisingly efficient. In the early days of launching my boat, I sailed in a mixed fleet and started with the Lasers full rigs. It's speed surprised every other sailor on the lake, because they expect a lug rig to be slow. In light breezes up to 10kts, especially downwind, I was faster downwind. If the rig is reasonably well sorted, in lightish conditions it can beat a Laser around a course, and look much better while doing it!

    Not only do I think that David should build the lug rig, but it will enhance his enjoyment of the boat.

    Choice of sail is unquestionably the Doyle radial cut sail used by Simon Lew.

    Attachment 222464

    The GIS attracts admirers like nothing else, so this is enough reason to do it, performance aside.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    414

    Default

    Does this lovely craft have a name so we can get it on the GIS World Map?

    I agree with Woodeneye about the lug rig. I find it easy to sail (perhaps because of the lower CE compared with a Bermuda rig??) and quite fast. I don't know what angle I'm actually tacking through when going upwind, but I've never had any trouble getting where I want to go. And it does turn heads.

    Re: hiking straps. Yes, absolutely. Use U-bolts through the cedar/plywood right near the floor. Back the nuts with fender washers or plates. They'll hold.

    Re: battens. I stopped using my full-length battens mostly because the pockets on my sail were useless, so the battens were just a PITA without doing anything at all for sail shape. Now that I've had the pockets fixed and have gotten the rest of the rig tuned better, I think I may try them again, just to see what kind of effect they have. But they certainly are NOT necessary. No need to spend the money on them. Short battens are only needed if your sail is cut with roach in the leechf.

    Re: lee helm. My experience is that, with the lug rig, this is adjustable. It depends on how much sail is forward of the mast. A few inches either way can make a big difference. Hence the need for a bleater instead of a square lashing (and some sail tape on the yard to keep the halyard attachment from sliding). Mine is set right now to give a very, very slight lee helm when close-hauled in light air. This disappears as soon as the wind picks up or I bear off. Under most conditions, I can hold the tiller right on the centerline with one finger. That makes a very noticeable difference in speed compared with fighting a weather helm like I did before I got the downhaul position right.

    Re: slight heel. Yes, if you are heading into a chop. Having the lee chine dig in reduces the banging and increases speed. On other points of sail, or on flatter water, I like to keep the boat quite flat if I can.

    Re: Portsmouth rating. I still think the rating for a Club 420 is a good place to start. The GIS is probably faster around the course, but not by so much that you'll be accused of blatant mendacity. More results will lead to a refinement over time.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    337

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Here is part of an earlier email from David.



    I think the nicest USA sail has been SimonLew's. Can you give us the sailmaker and your price again Simon.



    Welcome to Flickr - Photo Sharing

    Also, for David, we reworked the reefs on the mainsail a bit making the first one smaller and the last one a little further down the sail so boom and yard don't clash too much.
    The radial lug sail is built by Doyle-Ploch sails in St Petersburg, FL. I don't know if the sail is faster than a well built cross cut but it sure sets with a pretty shape and is forgiving to setup. I spent an afternoon sailing with another Goat (Rob Hazard's) that had a cross cut sail and we appeared pretty evenly matched. The only way to really tell would be to do some course racing but that aint gonna happen. Can't comment on how it stacks up against a laser but I'm thrilled with the performance of the rig.

    I paid around $700 for the sail 2 years ago which was an absolute steal but it was a bit experimantal as no one, that we know of, has done a radial lug before so I think they cut me a deal. The loft has almost certainly adjusted the price since then but their pricing is very competitive. Call them up at (800) 717-1406 and ask about the Goat Island Skiff radial sail. They are great folks to work with and should be able to get you a quote pronto. BTW here's their page with some of the more interesting work they have done Doyle Ploch Sails Can you spot the Goat among the megabuck racing sails?
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Can I roll the radial sail up or is that a bad idea?

    I used to be very anal about folding my sails, but with the Goat I've been rolling them it around the spars so I can get in and out of the water in 12min. or so. I know it's not the best for the sail, but would it be extra detrimental on the Simon's radial?

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    337

    Default

    I don't treat the sail any different than a cross cut. It's made from standard dacron just the panel shapes are funky.

    How are you rolling the sail? I tried it and could not get it to roll right. Oh nevermind just remembered, my sail has some roach and short standard battens so that's why rolling is not workng for me.

    I just half ass flake it into the boat drop the mast then bungee the sail and spars to the mast without disconnecting any of the rigging other than the downhaul.
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    950

    Default

    I drop the rig.

    I grab the yard and walk back from the boat to fully deploy the sail. I fold forward the yard peak down to parallel the boom, throw the extra head over and just roll it right up. If that doesn't make sense let me know and I will take a video next time I'm home. Then I use the halyard to wrap it up like a burrito.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    337

    Default

    No video needed, makes perfect sense. I'm going to try that next time and see if I can get the battens to fall in line with the burrito roll. Sure sounds more gentle on the sail cloth than what I'm doing.
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    414

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonLew View Post
    ...Sure sounds more gentle on the sail cloth than what I'm doing....
    I guess this would be a bad time to mention that my reef points are still tied in from the last time I went sailing -- 10 days ago. I just drop everything into the boat, pull it up on the dolly, and drag the whole thing home. Is that sail abuse?

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Queenstown New Zealand
    Posts
    382

    Default

    I must keep an eye out for a second hand or borrowable laser rig. It would be interesting to try it with the yawl mizzen.

    As the laser mast is in two pieces, it could make a good, compact, fit right within the boat and out of the way rig for more rowing oriented trips. I've been thinking of a couple of trips that start in a river big enough to row the goat down, but go through several hydro lakes on the way. The Clutha River all the way from Lake Wanaka to Kaitangata, camping along the way would be an interesting trip, just a couple of dams to carry around.

    Ian






  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,117

    Default

    Thats a great idea Ian! be even better if the Laser had a halyard! The Laser sail should balance (I think/hope). Or the adaptors for the step and base (if you need them) could allow for some mast rake.

    MIK

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Queenstown New Zealand
    Posts
    382

    Default

    What both David and Woodeneye need is a bigger higher aspect lug rig. Import one of the full carbon lug rigs designed for Nigel Iren's Romily:



    Stick that in a 50 kg Goat, add Woodeneyes hiking frame and enough acrobatic types on it to balance the sail area, and turn up at a "Gaffers and Luggers" regatta and see what the committee says!



    You might have to double the width of that hiking frame though, and add a trampoline so you can slide across quickly enough on the tack and jybes.

    Ian

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    337

    Default

    While you're at it just add some foils and off you go
    The Romilly rig sure looks the business.
    Last edited by SimonLew; 6th Sep 2012 at 12:53 PM. Reason: splelling
    Simon
    My building and messing about blog:
    http://planingaround.blogspot.com/
    The folks I sail with:
    West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,117

    Default

    Romilly is super cool - getting enough stability for that rig must have been interesting!

    But Nigel Irens is a brilliant designer.

    The main is boomless though ... and I think the TurboGoat or iGoat or whatever would be better with a boom!

    Actually I do think of Bolger's argument that if the choice is between a taller sail of less area and a lower one with more - both having the same heeling moment - which will come out on top?

    The bigger sail would have the advantage downwind, crosswind and in light to moderate upwind conditions ... I would guess.

    This is one of the reasons that many of the rig comparsons you see on the net (crab claw vs lateen vs standing lug vs sprit are flawed because they are about the same sail area. But the problem is if you decide on the same heeling moment then do you go for a tall narrow lateen or a short wide one in the comparison.

    Which shows that EVERY rig comparison is flawed unless the optimum aspect ratio is chosen for each rig.

    Also ... do you allow systems that will help prevent twist to even out the advantage of sprit booms and balance lugs? Do you allow vanghauls and bleeters?

    It goes to show that most of these comparisons tests are false in their design.

    Personally ... I'll wait for a lateen in the NS14 class, or others that also measure every square foot of sail.

    Until we see Junks or Crab claws or Lateens or balance lugs (but we might be on the way to changing that) on a racecourse they are second class citizens for sailing performance despite their many other advantages.

    Our job is to minimise that loss in an easily achievable way.

    And I wish Irens had put a boom on Romilly!!! She'll only be using 70% of that sail area downwind.

    MIK

    Best wishes
    Michael

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. I am not Goat Man.
    By callsign222 in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 27th Jul 2012, 03:04 PM
  2. Wild Goat
    By Seyit in forum SCROLLERS FORUM
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2nd Apr 2010, 06:19 PM
  3. The Goat Lug...another use
    By CCBB in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 14th Aug 2008, 07:52 PM
  4. First impressions of a Goat
    By CCBB in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 6th Aug 2008, 08:55 AM
  5. What gets up my goat!
    By Waldo in forum HAVE YOUR SAY
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 12th Aug 2005, 12:43 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •