Thread: halyard inside birdsmouth.

Re. Running the halyard through the mast.

I'd be inclined not to. It seems to me, one of the big plusses of these unstayed rigs with hollow wooden masts is the fact you can seal the mast up completely. Because its quite large diameter (compared to a stayed mast), there's a lot of buoyancy there which makes it pretty hard to fully invert the boat in a capsize situation.

You'd also need a hole throught mast just above the mast partner height or thereabouts to let the halyard out again, which would weaken it at the most stressed point. (This area is relatively unstressed in most stayed masts).

Plusses of putting the halyard inside? Possibly a little less windage, but I don't think it would be significant/worth the trouble on this rig.

Ian

Stealth build! Now that you've popped up on the radar, expect many requests for pics ad progress reports.

Doesn't the birdsmouth mast use spacer blocks in the interior? I know the square-section hollow desgn does. That would complicate and interior halyard considerably.

Regarding the blocks noted in the plans, I think it's safe to say that the designer's philosophy is against spending lots of money on the running gear. Here's an example of a perfectly adequate and inexpensive block:

Racelite Single Block RL-201

Not sexy at all, but it will get you sailing for low cash outlay. They also carry other types that you might make use of.

The ratchet block is another matter. They are usually (but not necessarily) centered somewhere on the deck, or in the case of the GIS on a line behind the center seat/thwart. It's a means for reducing the load in your hand. You can sail without one and the mainsheet would go from the boom to your hand. In light air that might be perfectly comfortable. Once the wind is blowing, a ratcheting block helps because it locks in one direction. The pull of the boom is taken up by the block and its attachment rather than you hand. Because it ratchets, you can still haul in the sheet freely. Different brands have different models that operate differently. In another thread here, the recommended ratchet was a Ronstan. If you're going to splurge money on the rigging anywhere, this piece is the first best place to do it. That and the actual lines themselves.

Post pictures and keep us updated on your progress! Welcome to the forum...

I'd completely disagree on the need for internal halyards and lifts. Windage is one of the biggest issues a rig contends with, so cutting down as much windage as practical is always a good thing. The same goes for weight aloft.

I build a several birdsmouth sticks a year and most incorporate internal halyards. Admittedly, most are stayed rigs, but the same rules apply on free standing rigs. You can go insane reducing ounces from the rig, but moving halyards and lifts inside the mast is a no brainer and a huge difference on most boats.

On a single sail boat with a single halyard and a single lift running up the mast, the windage on 6 mm line is 1/3 of a square meter every 4 meters in height. Yep, that's right a 1/3 meter paddle of windage for every 12' of height! A 4 meter tall mast with two lines running up it, has 2/3's a square metter of frontal area, not offering any help to the rig at all, it's just along for the ride, making eddies and resistance.

Granted in most small craft the power to weight ratio overcomes this fairly easily, but if matched side by side with an identical boat, though it has internal halyards and lifts, you'll not point as high and in very light air, he'll be faster, just from reduced resistance.

Last summer I reduced a class racers time, over a standard up and back course by 3 seconds, with a weight and windage reduction effort. 3 seconds doesn't sound like much, but if you're in a race this is a huge amount of time, about 2 1/2 boat lengths for this particular class racer. A 2.5 boat length disadvantage, right off the starting line is a big handicap to over come, usually requiring one or more mistakes by another boat to surmount.

Now most of the sailors here seem to be the casual, easy does it type, which is fine and internal halyards are more bother then likely worth. Of course, this is true until another sail appears within "reach" and the pseudo race is on. They trim as best as they can, usually falling off a touch for more speed, you trim up and look for lines dangling in the water and you claw at each other for as long as you can. Both Austrians and Americans have this inherently imbedded in their genes, so you decide if internal halyards are worth it, but you'll think about it the next time you're trying to run down a distant sail . . .

Howdy,

I'm very much inclined towards the simplest possible setup, which would mean an external halyard. As usual I wouldn't dissuade anyone who has a thoughtful approach to trying something a bit different.

One potential problem I can see is that where the line exits the mast at the top it will be called on to go through quite a large range of angles and also has considerable tension (if using the downhaul as harshly as recommended).

Basically the halyard will be asked to go through around 180 degrees or possibly more in the horizontal plane, meaning it will spend a fair bit of time not running out of the exit box in a perpendicular way but pinching around the tight radius of the exit box sides.

Something to consider. Suggest choosing an exit box with not too tight radii in that area. Also would probably suggest the box part itself be stainless rather than plastic as the finer spectra halyard will tend to cut away at the box fairly quickly.

It might make sense to have the halyard exit at the top of the mast out the side. And it would probably make sense for the halyard to exit at the bottom some distance below the partner.

Whether all this is worth enough to reduce the simplicity of the original setup would really be up to the builder.

If you do it - like everyone else who tries stuff - report back so we can all benefit!

I can't see any huge disadvantage of giving it a try and if it fails revert back to the original setup.

I would suggest making the mast about 100mm longer so the sheave box can be at the normal height of the halyard, but still have an end plug in the top of the mast for the fastenings should the original setup be reverted to. Unless you want to glue in the end plug later.

Just things to consider. On the plus side it is fun to try things.

MIK

In my rush to finish before being kicked out of my school's woodshop at the end of the semester I made many little mistakes and I am not inclined to show any pictures until I get a nice thick layer of paint on her. Sorry if I didn't do her justice Mik, but she is beautiful to me despite all those hidden foul ups I see.

The more I think about it, the more I think that a safer (easier to repair) setup would be better for the intended use of camping around the Chesapeake.

Even set up with a ratchet block that sheet goes through that block and a plain one on the traveler correct? What should hold the sheet for use of both hands?

To address the unfair lead issue, I've employed a home made bail (sometimes a store bought one too), installed inverted over the exit box. It hangs just low enough to permit the halyard or lift to enter the sheave throat, but also permits considerable misalignment. I've used this setup on gaffers, but not a lug, though I suspect it would work just as well. The bails I make are round bar stock (stainless of course), bent to suit the application and the ends are flattened, then drilled for mounting screws or sometimes through bolts up through the masthead cap/plug or horizontally through the staves, above the box. Mounted this way, the heavy load from a down haul will bear on the bail, not the sheave axle. Actually it bear on both, but the bail will carry much of it, easing the burden on the axle.

Internal lines do add a level of complexity to the assembly, though once built and rigged, no additional effort is required in operation.

For an internal halyard, you have to consider what MIK said, and you'd need to ensure that the mast is open ended both ends to allow it to drain and dry out properly. There is a fair bit of flotation in a hollow mast, so it's a big thing to give away for what I think is a marginal benefit.

Originally Posted by PAR

On a single sail boat with a single halyard and a single lift running up the mast, the windage on 6 mm line is 1/3 of a square meter every 4 meters in height. Yep, that's right a 1/3 meter paddle of windage for every 12' of height! A 4 meter tall mast with two lines running up it, has 2/3's a square metter of frontal area, not offering any help to the rig at all, it's just along for the ride, making eddies and resistance.

Hi Par, good to have an indication of how significant this windage from halyards is. I'm still wondering though, how do you manage the exit of the halyard at the mast base or thereabouts? The plans for unstayed (hollow wooden) masts that I have seen have a solid infill spacer for the bottom metre or so to support the mast throught the partner area, plus a few extra infill spacers at regular intervals, can these be dispensed with? (Or can the base one be replaced with more glass around the bottom metre or so of the mast?)

Ian

Sorry, I missed this post until now.

The exit can be handled just like on aluminum mast with an exit box, or you can use the rod bar stock bail method too. Most lines exit and continue down to a turning block on the deck at the base of the mast (partners or keel), where turning blocks direct them to where ever. You can use a turning block exit too, just like the masthead if you want the line to exit and come immediately back to some point. I'm not fond of this arrangement, but I've seen it done.

As to the internal stiffeners used in a mast (swallow tails) they have a hole in the center for condensation drainage or at least they should. All masts I've built have had this subtle, but very important feature. It doesn't weaken the mast to have this hole, even if it's a fairly large hole. With the hole on the centerline of the mast the loads in this area of a column are nil to almost nil. This is because the walls of the hole aren't very far from the center of gyration. On a recent 27' (9 m) mast build with two halyards and a lift inside the mast, I used a 3/4" hole (19 mm) on each swallow tail. This was inside a 3" (76 mm) diameter mast. The lines were 1/8" (3 mm) spectra for the halyards and the lift was 1/8" nylon double braid. I didn't use the round bar bail at the top, because I used home made sheaves with 1/4" (6 mm) axles, set in epoxy bushings, which I felt was up to the loads the halyards would impose. The exit on the other hand didn't need a boxed sheave, just a sheet metal wear plate, hammered to shape and screwed over the exit hole. The line all went to a standup swivel block mounted on the deck at the base of the mast. The lift landed on a standup block with a cam cleat attached, but the halyards came back to a cockpit cleat.

Better late then never . . .

Hi PAR, great information on setting up internal halyards on these masts, thanks.

Ian