Thread: Herreshoff Rowboat

Howdy... Actually ... this boat is quite simplified. IT is possible to build without any ribs at all if the seats have ring frames. I sold it before complete.

I only got to row one briefly ... not enough to get to know it well.

Moved out easily. A little twitchy like all fast boats, but some recovery of stability as it heels. Pretty easy to plank up too because of that flat panel in the bottom and the gentle curves in the sides.

I think PAR knows the boat well too.

MIK

I know the boat well from rowing Green Machine, Gardner's boat at Mystic, as well as rowing hull #2 built by Myron Arms, which is the boat Mystic uses as a back up in the livery.

The boat is as fast as I have gone in a fixed seat boat. It is very squirrely however -- it doesn't track well -- as drawn by Gardner. His idea was to make the boat symmetrical (the original was not symmetrical) and let the ends of the boat act as the lateral resistance and the stern, like a dory, create the skeg effect. It didn't work too well. His other ideas was that, in this symmetrical configuration, Green Machine can be rowed single or tandem by way of the thwarts flipping around so you would row facing one way single and face the other end of the boat tandem. The thwarts are hinged so they can shift a bit to take the two rowers. Myron added a skeg (he took a windsurfer skeg and glued it on!) and made the boat's thwarts fixed. His rows like a dream. Tracking issue solved.

I've nearly built this boat, and still would like too, but I am more inclined now to built a Culler Otter. I think this boat would be even faster than the Herr. Rowboat in flat water. In chop and waves, I'd prefer to be in the Herreshoff. I also think it would do well with a downwind sail rig, but may need a leeboard.

Thank's MIK. At least not a straight no. A promising reply if the lines are suitable as you say and she was built to be lightweight?

Thinking more for kit supply by you in Aus, Clint in US and me here in Europe, since lines are freely available in Gardner's book.

Please have a think about it. A "Classic" designs seem to have a lot of pull in the marketplace.

Brian

I'd have a hard time not building her traditional over the laminated ribs on the bottom, like a Guideboat, but a ply version is a great option. Same plank patterns.

Steve;s boat picured it very nice. He made great oars for her too! He is a great artist and a house restorer here in Maine.

Originally Posted by Compass Project

I'd have a hard time not building her traditional over the laminated ribs on the bottom, like a Guideboat, but a ply version is a great option. Same plank patterns.

Thanks Clint, your experience with using the design and rowing skills add hugely.

Custom "real" wood builds of classic rowboats are going to be core business to your venture.

Also supplying classic kits perhaps. That's where I am trying to explore in this thread. There are many kits available so the design has to have very high desirability and pull. Plus the buyer has to believe he can build her. He has to afford her too.

Herreshoff's name is totally acceptable to a buyer - no proving or explaining to do. Score 10/10

The plans are for a simpler build, not something like the Haven. Score 10/10

Simpler build but lovely looking and fast! Score 10/10

The design is available to use, it's printed in our book. Score 10/10

Hull kit might only use 3 sheets of 6mm, low machining costs and material costs. Score 10/10.

MIK possibily available to update the build and construction to 2010 simplicity and Clint to test and prove her! Score 20/20

So, in summary a possible worthwhile project with the most important thing of all - high desirability, yet low costs. Score 100/100.

Brian

Howdy Brian,

There is a bit of a problem with making patterns. It is not quite as straightforward as the manufacturers make it appear.

A computer can go a certain amount of the way toward working out the shapes, but you do need to get the boat built by a very experienced and careful builder to document the tiny changes that make everything work.

Not just work well ... but work at all!

The complexity usually is measured in number of planks and then other factors like the amount of twist in each plank.

But something paradoxical happens.

The more complex the boat the more chance a beginner has of making the tiny mistakes that cause real problems in lapstrake building

and

The more complex the boat the more chance an experienced builder has of correcting the tiny mistakes in the plan or kit.

At Duck Flat they have trialled a number of prototypes for kits - strongback, moulds and precut planks and they have found lots of little discrepancies.

Even with the Eureka, which is quite simple it took building a first boat over a strongback to check the computer projected shapes. These were corrected. Then a further discrepancy appeared in the following boats which I fixed up manually - a bit of a gap at the bow. And then when that was fixed there was a slight difference in curves giving an uneven gap in the join of a few millimetres. I fixed that manually as well.

The Eureka works pretty well now. My simpler hullshapes work great because the bits meet more or less at right angles ... so if the edges are a smooth curve it is going to work, but when panels are near in the same plane they need to be a close match.

This is part of the reason I stick to the simpler boats and have worked hard to overcome the perceived and real performance and handling limitations.

They are a bit like the lug in that.

The Herreshoff rowboat is a wonderful thing, but I am not sure how it will go in the marketplace. It is a lovely thing and a really knowledgeable person of our mindset would have one in the garage in a shot.

But the performance always means a lack of stability so that cuts it out of the mass market. It is also really a bit floaty for one person which is where both the squirrelly and the performance comes from.

Despite the boat being available in the book you seldom hear of one being built. They are very rare. Some of this might be because of the availability of a kit, but I would expect some fundamental demand for the boat that would crank on at some level.

You might be right and the marketing might make the difference ...

If marketing is the difference it would also work for Clint's Drake design which I think has a better chance in the marketplace because of greater stability and also very nice looks. It is also somewhere down the line towards there being corrected panel shapes available and from a marketing angle Clint uses the boat for extended rough water rowing regularly ... which is something very unusual.

It is also fewer panels which reduces the risk of mistakes.

Maybe I will do something along the lines of which you speak too, but at the moment the disposable canoe has a big potential market reach and the baby Goat will drop into a ready made market (I hope).

Best wishes
Michael

I agree with everything MIK said, especially the part about small discrepencies building up...they can magnify as a boat is planked. At Compass, we had an Oughtred Acorn Skiff in that had been built by a daughter and father. She brought it in for reconditioning. I thought it was maybe 25 years old and had been abused and I did not think it was an Acorn, it was so horridly planked, all lines resembling that design were gone. When she told me it had been built only 6 or so years ago and that it was an Acorn, my heart dropped into my thighs. A recent story from a builder in Australia: he told me that he had to fill an order quick for 2 or 3 Caledonia Yawls so he ordered kits and they fit badly. They spent as many man-hours fixing and repatterning he should have just built from scratch! I think the H-rowboat is wonderful, and has potential, but would need to be done carefully and accurately. I have a neighbor assembling a Chesapeake Light Craft Annapolis WHerry with a bunch of planks and I am astounded how beautifully it goes together...they are quite a company and really grabbed the market. Impressive chap, the proprietor is, though I don't like his designs much.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Despite the boat being available in the book you seldom hear of one being built. They are very rare. Some of this might be because of the availability of a kit, but I would expect some fundamental demand for the boat that would crank on at some level.

If marketing is the difference it would also work for Clint's Drake design which I think has a better chance in the marketplace

at the moment the disposable canoe has a big potential market reach and the baby Goat will drop into a ready made market (I hope).

Best wishes
Michael

Very good point MIK. If it's not being built why should I believe it could be popular!

I love Clint's Drake design and feel sure it will do well.

I agree 100%. about your Duct Canoe and baby Goat. I tried to think through how I could sail still and keeping to the flat water in the marshes seemed a good plan ( the wave motion upsets my balanced I am guessing) , so hence my interest in the Mersea Punts and your Duct Canoe for paddling and trying out my Opi rig.

Also because I have a complete rig and foils and would love to put a baby Goat under them and sail her boat for boat in the Scow fleet. One day, one day I will find a better boat than a Scow for inshore coastal fun. The huge thread about 12' sailing dinghies on the WBF, brought out many lovely multi plank designs, but not a really good simple single chine design, something like a 12' GP14 for instance. After that thread I am convinced there is a big opening for a 12' Goat if she really hits her marks, particularly if she handles securely like a Scow but adds more fun. Perhaps the target boat to beat should be the Mirror dinghy. With 70,000 built she proves she hits her marks for families who build.

This Rowboat thing comes from 2 years looking at what full complete kit might work and many ideas thought through with John Hesp who could produce the kit to the highest quality as proven by his 12' canoe. We seem to believe that Classic heritage is important in the market place, the Scows and others like the £8000 International 12, proving that.

Thanks hugely MIk and Clint for your feedback.

Brian

Gardner compares the Herreshoff and the Guideboat.

The Rowboat has a bottom width of 16"

The Guideboat only 8" to 9"

More interestingly the Rowboat has 2 3/4" of rocker as he drew it
and the Guideboat only 1" - pretty small for a 16' boat.

Just a thought MIK,

could you possibly, as an experiement, use your software to put a 16" bottom with 2 3/4" rocker on your Eureka / Duct Canoe sheer line and 42" Rowboat beam to see what happens? Think of it as a trial for your flared 12' design! Hope it's ok to ask....

Brian

This is a simplyfied version of the Herreshoff rowboat by Jim Michalak
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/lhf17/index.htm

Thanks Flo-mo, I have just been looking at the lines and thinking three strakes might keep most of the shape, and seeing these lines is great. Does not quite equal the same shape as these plank keel boats achieve with more strakes. The Guideboat and all others seem to have a garboard plank which leaves steeply from the keel plank, then flatten slightly and then steeper up to the gunnel.

It seems to be a special feature of these fast rowing boats such as the Guideboat and Herreshoff Rowboat, the narrow plank keel giving lift and support volume at the centre line, then this gull wing shape to steady the hull in motion.

Searching on LHF17 brings up another Duckworks article where an Australian company produce a kit of the original lines - so it can be done.

Duckworks - Projects








Quote "All in all a successful kit boat and a sheer delight to row." 8mm bottom and 4mm planks - 5 per side.

This boat was built by a customer from a kit



Brian

Howdy Brian,

I would consider contacting the Herreshoff rowboat people and see if you can get the job of promoting it for them. You can use me as a referee. The problem is always the amount of work that has to be done to get something so it works reliably enough to get it to market.

I have to judge that with all my projects and compare it to how big the niche is in relationship to that.

Here some or maybe most of the effort has been done already.

From running classes I would very much steer away from planking thinner than 6mm unless someone has more experience - it does add a lot of extra fussing and uncertainty and the bevels become tricky and feather edged or don't have enough of a land.

MIK

Here is the Canoe with the bottom panel and sheer width matching the Herreshoff rowboat. Pretty well an extreme dory. It might be a bit deeper in the water than this but I didn't want to calc out that part because I knew the pic would illustrate the shortcoming.

MIK

Looks like they took out every other frame and beefed up the remaining ones. The oarlock blocks are awfully bulky looking and the yellow one has some powderhorn sheer to it that I am pretty sure is not in the original. I wonder how many kits have sold.

Woah, as Culler used to say that boat is "way out"!!! tender comes to mind...it reminds me of the Culler Otter in the extremity of it. What is the waterline beam, MIK?