Thread: Hypothetical Portsmouth yardstick for GIS?

The Goat is not too far from a 420 in length, beam, sail area, etc. It is significantly lighter but probably cannot point as high.

Back in the day, 420s carried trapezes and spinakers. I no longer see either on the local fleets. I don't know if that is universal or idiosyncratic to the local area or marks the difference between "pure" and "club" 420s.

Bottom line: I'd be content with the handicap assigned to a non-trapeze, non-spinaker 420 in any race. They are common enough that your race organizers should know the numbers for a 420 by rote.

I believe Woodeneye raced his GIS around the buoys against a fleet of Lasers, I think he was competitive, sometimes ahead but ended up slightly behind them although not by much. My list shows a Laser at 1082, 420 at 1087, Wayfarer at 1101, I think you could plausibly ask them to assign the GIS a trial number of 1100 and see how it goes. It would be great if you can report results from fleet racing against boats with established Portsmouth numbers so we can build an understanding of where the GIS fits in.

All the best!

Ian

Thanks Paul and Ian,

I appreciate the replies, information and comments.

First of all, this February event in Arizona is not so much a racing regatta (at least as I think of racing regattas) but much more a social get together. Yes, there is some racing but it is very low-key as most of the participants are not racers and don't really want to be. But the organizers believe racing is a good way to learn sail trim and boat handling so they camouflage races as fun events. They use Portsmouth numbers for handicapping the races - but this is not a hard-core RC so they'll look up numbers rather than rely on rote memory.

Laser, 420 and Wayfarer are good suggestions as benchmarks but I discovered something of an anomaly. The North American Portsmouth numbers appear to use a different unit than both the RYA and the numbers Ian cited.

Centerboard Classes

The North American Portsmouth D-PN numbers for the three boats Ian listed:
Laser: 91.1
420: 97.6
Wayfarer: 91.6

Regardless of the units, the anomaly is the Wayfarer's number. The RYA number rates the Wayfarer as the 'slowest' of the three, while the North American numbers rates the Wayfarer between the Laser and 420 - and nearly as fast as the Laser. Am I misreading the tables?

As for reporting results, I'll certainly let you know how things go but this is a one-off, casual, not very serious messabout rather than a hard-core racing regatta. I do hope to use the February experience to finagle a rating with a local (central Michigan) sailing club next spring/summer.

Any thoughts re the differences between the two Portsmouth systems?

Thanks.

I think a Wayfarer would be a close match for the GIS. It's slightly faster then a Laser, given equal terms (sailed and equipped well), particularly if the winds pick up.

Hi Par, (and others), what's your take on the differences between the Portsmouth numbers from the RYA and the US Sailing table?

I thought they were the same except the US were normalised to a value of 100, the UK ones to 1000, but as Bob says, the relative positions of the boats I mentioned are different between the two tables.

Ian

Originally Posted by IanHowick

Hi Par, (and others), what's your take on the differences between the Portsmouth numbers from the RYA and the US Sailing table?

My understanding is that the tables are built using different datasets. The US numbers are derived from results sent in by US and Canadian clubs and the RYA numbers are derived from results sent in by UK clubs.

While some boats are popular all over the world, there are certainly designs which are more popular in the US than in the UK and vice-versa. So some designs will have more reported results, hence more accurate numbers, in one table or the other. More popular classes are also likely to attract better and more competitive crews, making their numbers look better. And there are subtle differences in rigging and safety equipment from place to place ("club" vs. "international" 420s, for example). All of these can cause a boat's place in the rankings to differ.

It would be nice if the two datasets could be pooled to generate one, more accurate set of PNs. But maybe it's better this way. The differences help remind us not to take this or any handicapping system as perfectly accurate. Watching the numbers change year by year would also be good for that. Handicaps are never more than a rough guide. They say that Puddle Ducks are slower than Lasers and so some allowance must be made. But if you want to be more rigorous than that, regattas don't work. Everyone has to sail identical production boats.

Regattas are fun. But as long as there have been regattas, there have been arguments after the fact over whether the handicap was fair.

Howdy,

Bruce's (Woodeneye) is the one who has sailed the most against regular boats. So is the best source.

Michael

I could be quicker than the Lasers in up to 10kts, and finished in the middle of the Lasers once in 15kts with a lightish crew. I always managed to beat the 420s and the 470s if they did not use trapeze or spinnakers. Above 10-12 kts I would struggle to keep it flat and powered up on the beats. Off the wind, the Goat is really fast and can be sailed by the lee quite quickly with just a little bit of vang so that the sail twists a bit. (By the lee is fast in Lasers) However you must not let the yard get in front of the mast when by the lee or you will be swimming pretty soon. If you don't have a vang to control the yard sufficiently, do not sail by the lee in more than 12 kts.

The Goat can point quite high if you have it set up well with plenty of vang and downhaul. Not quite as high as a Laser, but as good as most boats with a jib.

I'm taking the Goat out to Salamander Bay on Boxing Day and New Years day. Unfortunately Kim will be working. Hopefully my 2 girls will come along and make a day of cruising with the dolphins. Two weeks ago I had to get out of the way of a pod which was coralling a school of fish before going in for the kill. The water fairly boiled for a couple of minutes.