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  1. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Tilburg, the Netherlands
    Age
    51
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    519

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    I took this picture during the Waterland Raid in the spring of 2015. You can clearly see the Venetian style rowlocks and the retro fitted dagger board case.


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  3. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    For proper sleeping for two, you will need 125cm minimum at the shoulders (140 would be better). Near the feet, it can be a bit narrower.

    A Vivier Seil here in the Netherlands has been modified a lot, much in the style of the Harrier presented in the Small Boats Article. Let me try to find a photo of it. The owner first decided (almost a decade ago already - he seriously hurt his sitting bone whilst rowing in a raid in Italy to the extent that he was hospitalized!) to convert the boat to Venetian style rowing (before they tried sliding seats and then fixed seated rowing).

    Some 5 years ago maybe, the owner had the normal swinging center board case removed and replaced by a simple dagger board (actually my Goat Island Skiff inspired him to do this). The board is extremely heavy though made from mahogany plywood and being very thick (NACA profile was used). It does mean that the boat is now very much open which is good for camp cruising.

    One thing that I do not like about the interior of the boat being completely open is that you are still stuck with waterproof bags all over the boat that you need to strap down. And where is the buoyancy?
    Depending on the hull shape, the flat cockpit sole creates ample space beneath for stowage and/or flotation. In the ilur, the designer chose storage space for oars, anchor and rode. Yes, open boats will likely require stowage of gear in boxes and dry bags, and it is what limits the Ilur to two, and optimally one for cruising. Even if your camping style is minimalistic, there is abundant gear to tote. Except for food and water, the gear for an overnight is much the same as for a week on the water. Here, the clutter of gear on one side of the CB, and bedroll on the other, 4 days or so into a week on the water:
    0631022C-0C1D-43F1-ACF2-3F85537EE634.jpg

  4. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    960

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hartmann View Post
    Even if your camping style is minimalistic, there is abundant gear to tote. Except for food and water, the gear for an overnight is much the same as for a week on the water.
    This is surprising, but true. Preparation for 1 night at anchor vs. a week on the boat is largely the same. The only thing that changes is potable water and food.

  5. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

  6. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

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    Christophe,

    When the Sea Pearl goes over ... what would you guess the distance is between the mast partner and the water when the boat is on its side?

    One of the advantage of boats with fore and aft buoyancy tanks is that they sit low in the water on their sides so the mast is more parallel with the water (ie close at the partner to the water.

    Boats with side buoyancy sit up out of the water so the partner is well above the water when the boat is on its side with masthead/s in the water.
    1/ only the tip of the mast is in the water.
    2/ The hull is already well heeled towards the water so the hull weight is bearing down on the mast more.

    With End buoyancy the boat ends up with very large amounts of water to bail out after an easier recovery.

    I'm thinking ... maybe I can try to get the best of both worlds. And the Sea Pearl is useful to examine as it is probably something around the same size.

    Anyone else with experience with the SP is welcome to pipe in.

    Cheers ... and Happy New Year

    MIK

  7. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Happy New Year, All!
    Mik, the forum software on my tablet was set so as not to save “sent” PM’s—if you want to post my message to about boats which look after tired sailors as a critical measure of dinghy cruising performance, please feel free to share it here.
    I have a file of photos which were taken when we were trying to turtle proof the Sea Pearl, but not sure I can figure out how to post them here; I can get them to Christophe if he doesn’t already have most of them, or I can get them to you via e-mail if that would help.

  8. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    10

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    I think I just sorted the posting bit. Here is a SP moments after going over, with mast head bouyancy to prevent turtling, but it shows the approximate angle at which the mast tops strike the water in a capsize.
    B0B923E1-B7DA-4FF0-8C9B-79B0D85F720D.jpg

    Here is what happened after down flooding filled the hull. Very stable. So stable that it was almost impossible to right the boat by a single sailor. Once the boat was righted, the hull was Awash, and bailing in anything other than a dead calm would not have been possible.
    3007BEBF-BD53-434B-B977-7FB0F0F775B4.jpg

  9. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hartmann View Post
    Happy New Year, All!
    Mik, the forum software on my tablet was set so as not to save “sent” PM’s—if you want to post my message to about boats which look after tired sailors as a critical measure of dinghy cruising performance, please feel free to share it here.
    I have a file of photos which were taken when we were trying to turtle proof the Sea Pearl, but not sure I can figure out how to post them here; I can get them to Christophe if he doesn’t already have most of them, or I can get them to you via e-mail if that would help.
    That would be great to see.

    There are two main buoyancy setups and they both have good and bad points.

    End Tank Buoyancy
    Boat lies on side with mast tip in water - mast is fairly parallel to the water so a large part of the masthead can resist turning turtle
    Hull weight is downward and not leaning on the mast much reducing the chance of turning turtle. Again because the mast is relatively close and parallel to the water
    Boat is easy to roll upright
    Chance of boat blowing away from crew (why did they let go) is less.
    If boat does drift away it is likely to capsize again slowing its escape.
    Less stable on side but the gunwale can be pulled lower to the water to make rolling back into the boat easier
    Once aboard crew have to pay attention to boat balance first and foremost to prevent a second capsize
    Lots of bailing.

    Side Tank Buoyancy
    Boat floats high and leans onto mast making a turtle capsize more likely
    Only tip of mast is touching water ... as more of the mast goes into the water the hull leans harder on it
    Boat is ok to roll upright if it is still on its side
    If upside down it is stable and hard work to roll onto its side
    On its side it gets blown along very quickly
    When it is upright there is no water inside.
    if crew loses grip the boat will blow away or sail away very fast
    Freeboard is increased so harder to get back into boat .. important to plan the method in advance.
    Back inside ... no or little bailing
    Boat is stable.



    A note for the general audience - The bad points for both can be reduced with good planning and practice of capsize. If capsizing and unsure what the boat will do ... IT IS YOUR FAULT. If you don't know what the boat will do then you probably don't know exactly what to do either - so practice in safe conditions is really important. If practicing do not tether the boat .. the wind coming sideway to the hull assists reboarding and reduces the risk of capsize as the boat is more likely to fall over one way rather than both ways.

    So it really is a case of swings and roundabouts, informed decisionmaking, practice.

    There is a third group with buoyancy under the floor. Behaviour depends on how much volume is there. And it almost doubles the build time - though this can be reduced with stitch and fillet of the underfloor components. In boats just above the 16ft range to get enough volume it can mean the cabin sole is so high that sitting normally (or getting clearances between knees and oars) in the boat is compromised in boats unless the freeboard is high ... which has other downsides.

    Happy New Year to all!

    MIK

    MIK

  10. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    960

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post


    A note for the general audience - The bad points for both can be reduced with good planning and practice of capsize. If capsizing and unsure what the boat will do ... IT IS YOUR FAULT. If you don't know what the boat will do then you probably don't know exactly what to do either - so practice in safe conditions is really important. If practicing do not tether the boat .. the wind coming sideway to the hull assists reboarding and reduces the risk of capsize as the boat is more likely to fall over one way rather than both ways.


    MIK
    This is worth re-quoting and re-reading for those who have not done so already. There is a deep culture of not capsizing boats in the small-traditional boat crowd here in the US, I imagine the same elsewhere. It must be done if any solo sailing or cruising and is going to be attempted.

    It should be noted in the above pictures that I have two mast head floats for redundancy. One barely kept her up, if it broke off we would be sunk. You can't have the minimum amount, you need redundant systems.

    Mik, for your musing, the Sea Pearl has a bow flotation tank, and two large styrofoam blocks under the thwarts in the aft cockpit. If I had ballast tanks (none in this one) and they were empty of water, they would have provided side buoyancy, but I don't know if it would have been sufficient to keep her from rolling over. Maybe. Maybe not.

  11. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    This is worth re-quoting and re-reading for those who have not done so already. There is a deep culture of not capsizing boats in the small-traditional boat crowd here in the US, I imagine the same elsewhere. It must be done if any solo sailing or cruising and is going to be attempted.

    It should be noted in the above pictures that I have two mast head floats for redundancy. One barely kept her up, if it broke off we would be sunk. You can't have the minimum amount, you need redundant systems.

    Mik, for your musing, the Sea Pearl has a bow flotation tank, and two large styrofoam blocks under the thwarts in the aft cockpit. If I had ballast tanks (none in this one) and they were empty of water, they would have provided side buoyancy, but I don't know if it would have been sufficient to keep her from rolling over. Maybe. Maybe not.
    Great ... the buoyancy layout of the SP is valuable information.

    I know you loved the performance of the SeaPearl and its handling ... the feeling you could turn it just about on a dime and sneak into any tricky anchorage.

    Did that nice handling change much between tanks filled and tanks empty? How was speed affected in light winds?

    I've been poring over some of the SeaPearl forums to pick up anything I can. Been an admirer for a long time.

    I'm tempted by water ballast too. But if the boat goes over much further than 90 degrees then the ballast is also pushing the mast under.

    Not so with a heavy centreboard .. but then you have to raise and lower it .. and lock it down so it doesn't retract.

    It is not an easy nut to crack by any means.

    MIK

  12. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1

    Default

    I've been working through the back catalog of Furled Sails Podcasts (Bolger, Beuhler and Mik(!) interviews are great!). Christy & Noel were (possibly still are) passionate owners of a SeaPearl - it was positively mentioned often. Applying your "Smaller, lighter Simpler, less volume, more easily driven. The things that make the GIS and Viola work well" Mik, sounds very interesting!

  13. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

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    Another Swedish canoe ...

    The midship section totally reminds me of a starboat. It does seem sticky in light wind.

    Remember these are not light boats with quite a lot of ballast.



    MIK

  14. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    10

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    The French NA Giles Montaubin has drawn a number of raid type boats, some of which may be worth looking over as a way to see how the balance of choices shakes out in actuality. Here is one of his smaller designs, “Foxy Lady”:
    B1D0D2E0-8045-4029-941F-CAE1FACF16B0.jpeg
    9D5AF94F-DDCD-4E27-8E36-549A0C4233CE.jpeg
    AD84CCE3-4ACE-41FD-BA82-46CC76ECB043.jpeg
    Another of his designs, the Lili 6.1 has some very interesting features like twin canted daggerboards, which would complicate the build considerably. It has a cuddy for minimalist shelter, and to my tastes the after cockpit is fussy, but the rig and it’s deployment should be familiar to folks who have sailed Sea Pearls:
    0DBDDBBA-CE38-4486-8A04-90C6670BE7DB.jpeg

  15. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    15

    Default How about starting from a Wayfarer?

    I know I am late to the party, but this thread could be microtargeted at me. I currently sail a GIS and love it except that I want to do more cruising in San Francisco Bay, an area where there are big winds (reliably 15+kts) and almost no legal camping shoreline. I am also a bit appalled by the volume of water in the GIS when she comes upright. I've long been intending to build a Caledonia Yawl, but I am currently building a Viola to tow behind my bicycle (that's for other purposes than cruising.)

    Anyway, the discussion is fascinating. I personally don't want to build a cabin boat. Too much building time added, and too much space taken away. I'd probably build a Wayfarer if plans were available (and there are almost none on the US west coast). If Mik were to design something like a Wayfarer, I am sure he could cut its weight pretty dramatically. Along the lines of Cristophe's notion to raise the floor of a CY and remove the thwart, I think that could be a winning idea on a Wayfarer, opening up a large flat platform for camping purposes. Alternatively, James McMullen on the WoodenBoat forum built a hinged thwart into his sail-and-oar double-ender. A clever design maybe could hinge on both halves of the thwart to open up the boat completely.

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