Results 1 to 15 of 59
-
25th November 2020, 11:47 PM #1
A larger storer boat for cruising and performance.
It has been some time since I used this forum so directly.
But it is a good chance now.
The reason is we want the input of Christophe, Callsign222 who doesn't uses facebook.
You may have seen the Viola sailing canoe that Joost Engelen (another former regular here) jointly developed - effectively a purists sailing dinghy with a canoe like platform for light weight and easy transport (75lb hull - which is important to this discussion)
The Viola is shown to the left.
The boat on the right is the recently designed "Kombi Canoe" also developed with Joost. A 50/50 sail and paddle canoe.
I'm always being asked to draw up a "longer Goat Island Skiff" but that feels wrong. The GIS is just on the cusp for two people to lift. Make it bigger and it is no longer the light and simple boat the standard one is. And also lose that instant "trimmability" with every little wave and every little extra gust to pull away from (often) much larger boats metre by metre.
And Joost's two kids are getting bigger. Still OK in the Goat but may start cutting into performance in the next 3 years!
The boats we are thinking about as fitting in the same niche are great boats. Every one has great strengths and some weaknesses.
My mental list is
- Caledonia Yawl
- Sea Pearl (monohull configuration)
- The European design the Valk (I hafve a feeling i have the name wrong - joost will correct me) a family racing cross between a dinghy and a keelboat. Often sailed in RAID events with three to 5 aboard sailing hard and wielding paddles (oars are not allowed in many Netherlands events).
- Some of john Welsfords bigger sailing dinghies.
My current idea is something like a blown up (in proportion) Viola with a choice of two rigs. A Sloop using a sliding gunter main for a modern touch. Here is an 15er yacht from the prewar period - look at the rig ... not the surplus of battens!! And probably a less stable hull so the rig size will come down a bit - so the boat will be much longer than the rig from jib tack to main clew.
The other version would be a balance lug yawl. Some variation along the lines of the BETH rig but with a larger mizzen.
The other idea that points somewhere interesting are the Swedish Sailing Canoes. Though these are quite heavily ballasted and basically a short handed boat.
Current ideas
- kindof liftable hullweight. 14ft Viola is 75lbs. an 18 footer might be around 145lb and a 20 footer around 200. Before considering ballast.
- sailable in family mode with ballast and performance mode with less
- With ballast capable of coastal cruising on good weather reports
- Handled by one person (as that is often what happens with family recreational sailing) but busy enough to keep a keen crew interested.
- Works with oars.
- Easily rightable from capsize (I've been here before - and too easy can be a liability if the crew falls off.
- Interesting and pretty (that is my job as well as the numbers)
- Righting after capsize with minimal water aboard.
That's kind of it for now ... Joost will be along in a bit. And along the line Christophe.
Best Regards
MIK
(Michael Storer)
-
25th November 2020 11:47 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
- Join Date
- Always
- Location
- Advertising world
- Age
- 2010
- Posts
- Many
-
25th November 2020, 11:55 PM #2
One side note, there are a number of things intervening before this can be turned into a plan.
I've finally got the 12ft Son of Goat underway. But I also have an admin employee for the sailmaking and I am trying to get a Customer Management program going. It has been weeks of slog.
So I would say ... a few months away ... but I need to get the ideas in my head.
MIK
-
26th November 2020, 07:00 AM #3SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
You have the name correct MIK, it is a Valk. Designed by Van der Stadt. It is a keelboat with a 150kg keel and appr. 6.5 meters long, 2 meters wide and 90cm draft. The wooden ones are proper race boats and pretty quick (the design stems back to 1939). Most boats you see on the water nowadays are polyester however and it is used everywhere for renting and sailing schools. For a couple of reasons: pretty quick, cheap, very simple rigging that works (gaff sloop measuring 17.5 m2 in total), the possibility to carry camping kit for 4 persons and the ability to sleep onboard. They are self-bailing (double floor with the cockpit sole above the water line). Based on the same lines Van der Stadt designed a couple of hard chined Ocean racers (Zeeslang, Zeevalk, etc.) that were very successful.
Some of the qualities appreciated in the Valk may however also be valid for this new boat:
- day sailing for 4
- lockers for camp cruising kit (for 2 in our case)
- sleeping on board for 2 would be a big bonus for this type of boat
This would mean that longer trips are possible with the boat. One other important point to consider is ease of building.
The rigs you are proposing above make sense to me. The more modern sliding gunter sloop would the faster rig and good for upwind performance and boat handling (quick tacking). Spars would still be reasonably short which helps during transport. And it looks great. The lug rig with mizzen has certain advantages including cheaper rigging and the possibility to trim out the boat for longer stretches. Always good to have options.
-
7th December 2020, 10:53 AM #4
Apologies about the late reply!
Look, first and foremost X-Boat needs a mission. What's the mission, the objective, the end goal of this boat? Is it a single-purpose boat or a jack-of-all-master-of-none boat?
Joost wants lockers for camping and sleeping aboard for two, Mik wants to keep the weight down to 145lbs for an 18 footer.... !?!? These things start to become incompatible without a clear mission.
Is it a cruising boat? Or a RAID boat? Or a go fast day boat that can be stretched with some imagination into a camping boat (albeit uncomfortable and less optimized for cruising)?
If you want solid dinghy cruising experience from me, I can definitely do that. I can speak authoritatively on the Sea Pearl and the CY for sure. I could write pages about the boats, but in terms of efficiency, what are we most concerned with?
Exciting project, for sure! Viola is just awesome how it fills the design brief. XBoat should be the same.
-
7th December 2020, 09:35 PM #5SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
Yes, a mission profile needs to be determined for X-Boat. In any case it needs to be different from the Goat.
I would think that the boat needs to be able to fulfil multiple purposes. A boat that is good at only one think may not appeal much. Also some requirements may translate well across different uses.
All of MIK’s boats are (relatively) light so that is a given. I would be hesitant however to make that a leading factor as it may impact other crucial requirements much.
What I think makes sense:
- Fast cruising boat that can be used for raids. Designing it the other way around may mean that the boat becomes too extreme and not have much of an appeal.
- Proper day-sailing for 4 adults. Kind of a must because otherwise there would be no differentiation with the GIS.
- More than one sail for a couple of reasons. One is to keep the crew busy. But also a singly lug sail becomes too large and unwieldly to handle. In any case the rig needs to be easy to reef and set/strike. Another must is that it goes to windward well and is easy to manoeuvre.
- I think that when you want to go camp-cruising, it quickly becomes a 2-person boat as to be able to carry the supplies, etc.
- One of the things most often asked for is sleeping onboard (even for the Viola and Kombi canoes!) and I think that a larger boat should be able to do that. It depends much on what the starting point is for the design. MIK and I have briefly talked about a boat that takes on the qualities of the Hartley TS16 but in a more modern and lighter package. So some basic interior space for 2. But sleeping under a cockpit tent is another viable option and allow for a lighter approach like a souped up Viola or a boat taking hints from the International 110 or Swedish canoes. Many of the raid boats here have the 2-person crews sleep under a cockpit tent (Welsford Pathfinder, Ougthred Caledonian Yawls, Vivier Seils).
- The GIS provides very good performance but lacks one thing that would be nice for dinghy cruising: there is simply not much space dedicated for storing gear. Yes, you could use waterproof bags but the problem I have with this solution is that they take up a lot of space in the cockpit. Especially in areas where you need to get the mast up and down often or row certain sections (certainly the case here in the Netherlands), the bags get in the way pretty quick.
- Secondary propulsion is important. When I compare the boats mentioned above to the GIS, the GIS is much better. The Pathfinder is too heavy, wind and high sided. Also the rig gets in the way much as it typically sits in a tabernacle. The Caledonians are better to row, but too wide and still quite heavy. But this is much a discussion point, I think. Is it acceptable if the boat can be rowed some distance or is it to be a true sail & oar boat. Another question is for how many persons the rowing be laid out for? I do not think that a boat that requires a crew of 2-4 on the oars as a design winner (let’s face it, realistically the boat will be used by a crew of 2 mostly and 4 only on occasion).
- I do think that the boat needs to have minimalistic, clean and simple lines (like the Viola and Kombi). A lot of persons are drawn by a certain style and people typically do not move across them easily. So from a styling perspective it needs to provide something different as to carve a niche for itself.
Anyway, some thoughts from me to get the ball rolling when it comes to setting the design parameters for X-Boat.
-
9th December 2020, 11:14 PM #6
The Goat was meant to be a daysailing boat for two. It was meant to be fun to sail. It was designed to carry more weight at times. That was about the full list. And two sheets of ply long
Simple construction
Good Looks
Light weight
Generous sail area
It wasn't meant for RAIDing (that wasn't even dreamed of when it was designed). But it has moved into each of the roles you mention adequately or more than adequately. It wasn't even really meant for multi day cruises - and you were one of the first to do some really adventurous stuff off the coast of Maine.
But of course ... after several years of amazing journeys and photos ... you moved on.
Christophe's Blog starting with the GIS and ending up with the Sea Pearl and then the Caledonia Yawl is here
The Goat didn't do the next stage for you. What was it that made you make the next step on and pass the Goat onto a new owner (Christophe's "IAZP" now lives at the Sebago Canoe Club on the Periphery of New York).
If you want solid dinghy cruising experience from me, I can definitely do that. I can speak authoritatively on the Sea Pearl and the CY for sure. I could write pages about the boats, but in terms of efficiency, what are we most concerned with?
Exciting project, for sure! Viola is just awesome how it fills the design brief. XBoat should be the same.
Best Regards to All
MIK
-
9th December 2020, 11:38 PM #7
Lockers plus context. That is a nice filling out of a potential spec.
Sea Pearl is 19
Caledonia Yawl is 19
Valk is 6.5m (22ft) designed as a two person racing dinghy with cruising potential - often sailed with four aboard for distance events.
Then the other way to go is shorter and wider ... like the Hartley TS16. There may be problems with this approach for rowing though.
-
9th December 2020, 11:50 PM #8
One thing that does stick out as a surprise is that tabernacles, while making it easier to get masts up and down, do mean they go up the middle of the boat unless the pin is fairly high set.
One thing that has very much changed in recent years is rig weight. That carbon tubes, particularly plain untapered ones, have become commodity items in several regions.
And we are seeing weights of spars come down to around 1/3 of what they were with hollow wood construction.
The original 20lb timber Goat Island Skiff mast was OK to get in and out. But 7 or 8lb carbon mast means that it is possible for a teenager to remove it and replace it underway without a tabernacle
Perhaps an open back partner as we see in some boats makes sense so that the mast can be dropped down to any angle and slid forward or to the side to keep out of the way of the rowing station/s.
Screenshot_37.jpg
It might seem like too early a point to mention this, but it does define the way the boat works. If rigs are designed around sail areas that a person can handle by themselves, then mast weight and mast handling is probably one of the close definitions for the next size of boat up.
And it is an area that has changed tremendously in a short time span.
MIK
-
10th December 2020, 01:02 AM #9
-
10th December 2020, 01:36 AM #10
The Goat is a boat I wish I had back just because it's so easy to trailer and fun to sail. I think it was a fine one-person camping boat if the sailer was/is camping ashore. In a pinch and with know-how it's a good but not great 2 person camping boat (obviously camping ashore). The boat was fast, mostly weatherly, and could be dragged over things. I always felt safe in it when cruising. Going upwind in big seas was not it's strong suit however, and it was wet and poundy in these conditions and I lost a lot of pointing ability. One day I was cruising with my friend Jon in his Phoenix III and we were pounding upwind in big seas. He was comfortable sitting on his cockpit sole, pinching the boat and mainsail, and the round hull made dependable, albeit slow, progress to windward. I was alternating sitting on the rail/sitting on the floor, the bow getting tossed to leeward, and pointing significantly less than he was upwind. It was hours of wet and cold while he was dry and comfortable.
Reefing too, was a bit of a pain, though at that time I did not have a mizzen on the Goat. Going forward was a little perilous and the boat would swing abeam the wind and it was uncomfortable putting in a reef.
Also, I was making larger passages in more open water and did want something with a little more stability and hands-off sailing. This meant two sails and some mass for inertia.
I got the Sea Pearl. This boat was fast, safe, a little wet sometimes though, but could sail upwind very well, and had very easy reefing. The reefing was so easy, as the sails were loose footed and wrapped around the mast. I loved it. The shallow draft, the speed, the comfortable convertible cabin and sleeping platform, all top notch. Over time the sleeping arrangements started to get to me as I am 6'2" and was missing the headspace. My ultra-light tent I backpack with has more vertical space than the Sea Pearl cabin, but it kept me dry, warm, and out of the wind. The Sea Pearl is one of the finest sailing boats I've ever had the pleasure to sail. I could make her do anything-- sail backwards, sideways, over 5" of water, forward though nasty chop, no-hands, anything I wanted. The storage space was smart and I could pack everything away and have clear access to anything in the boat without bags underfoot or getting in the way.
Unfortunately her fatal flaw was that if she capsized she immediately turtled and was unrecoverable. This happened to me off the coast of Maine and I had to get rescued. It was a dramatic afternoon and I'm glad it turned out as well as it did because the consequences were as high as they get. I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty here, but basically a large windshift from off the aft quarter to downwind while coming down a wave on a broad reach pushed the powerful mizzen over. I let go of the mainsail but the mizzen, sheeted for a reach, overpowered the rudder and the boat turned into the wind and got pushed over at the same time. It was immediate, fast, and unstoppable. There is a lot to unpack here, but that's another book entirely.
I spent several months and several capsizes attempting to truly rectify this flaw. Without halyards and shrouds or any ability to add things easily to a mast that depends on reefing the sail via turning the mast and wrapping it, the solution was an ungainly engineered Hobie-cat like buoyancy ball at the top. They needed to be LARGE to stop the incredible weight of the boat as it rolled over, I tried many different sizes and the biggest buoy I could buy was the only one that worked. Aerodynamic drag, more weight aloft, and I would need two of them for redundancy reasons, were the reasons I cancelled the project and sadly sold the boat. A halyard sail would have opened up more options.
Enter the CY. A fast, stable, dry boat. I can recover it after capsize. It's a safe boat. Lot of interior volume, but weirdly drawn in such a way that the space is not used as efficiently as it could. She needs lots of flotation. Her handling is poor compared to the GIS or SP. She points badly and in big seas tacking is a real chore. I have the 4 strake Mk1 boat. The skeg is bigger than the 7 strake option, maybe that is part of the issue. I'm working on it and slowly improving performance with foiled rudder, CB is next. I find she has lots of weather helm, a lot. I'm reducing this too but incrementally, there doesn't appear to be an easy fix on this and I don't know why. I could balance the SP to anything I wanted but I can have the mizzen completely luffing and still by white-knuckling the tiller to keep her from swinging into the wind. I have moved the mainsail backwards and forwards by feet, and can't get it totally under control. We're getting there but it's not self-evident and is taking me some serious time to figure out.
The sleeping area is sub-optimal compared to the amount of interior volume I have. As I mentioned I'm thinking of knocking everything out of the interior, installing a forward and aft buoyancy compartment and then laying out of a giant mid-level/waterline floor, with no center thwart, side thwarts, or floorboards. Going for a ballroom type floor throughout the middle of the boat to provide big sleeping spaces that are below the gunwale and protected.
-
10th December 2020, 01:38 AM #11
I got a carbon mast for the CY. I am never going back. It's the best thing I did, especially with a large lug rig. The mast does not bend, so I can get sufficient luff tension, and striking the mast is far easier. The money for the carbon rig is equivalent to the timber + time + skill needed to make a birdsmouth. I am bullish on this, the carbon mast is The Way.
-
10th December 2020, 02:29 AM #12SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
Yes, I agree. It makes handling so much easier and removes the need for tabernacles, gates in mast partners, etc. Pricey but much worth the investment. After 10 years I recently changed my timber box mast on my Goat (9.2 kg) for a carbon mast (4.2 kg) and love it.
To make full use of the advantages or carbon, a freestanding rig makes most sense and that would point towards a rig like the Sea Pearl has or a lug rig. But... it also depends on how much this is to be a sail & oar boat. For a sail&oar boat it is a must, in my opinion, to be able to get the rig out of the rower's way quickly. You do not want the mast left standing as it gives a lot of resistance and a mast in the middle of the boat is a problem.
On the other hand if the boat is only be rowed short distances (so a sail boat that can be rowed), less optimal arrangements towards rowing may become acceptable. This may be determined mostly by how important sleeping on board the boat is (if felt very important, a cabin starts making a lot of sense).
-
10th December 2020, 02:42 AM #13SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
-
10th December 2020, 02:54 AM #14SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
P1130991 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr
This is how this CY (4 strakes) does it when sleeping on board. Masts are normally left standing. There is a collar in the tent to make it water tight where the mast passes through it.
This boat does not raise the floorboards but rather uses a roll up bamboe slatted base to put the self inflatable air mattresses on. It works okay in a sheltered spot. If possible, the crew however always pitches a tent on shore (simply more comfortable), but this does give them options when pitching a tent onshore is not possible.Last edited by Joost; 10th December 2020 at 02:56 AM. Reason: Correcting photo link
-
11th December 2020, 05:10 AM #15
This is where our experiences differ and consequently what we are looking for in a boat. I am mostly sleeping aboard on an anchor, hopefully in a bay or a cove somewhere. The strategy is to find protection for the overnight weather, but sometimes this doesn't always happen and we find we are more exposed than we wanted to be. When this happens it can get uncomfortable and/or we have to move, tend to the anchor, or who knows what. If I could ensure that I was camping ashore everynight, or tying up to a dock, my parameters for the boat would be different.
The bamboo bedding + CY combination is ideal for this, they can make a large platform, tent in the entirety of the boat from stem-to-stern, and not have to worry about: wind in the tent, rolling, dragging anchor, rowing, etc.
Here's a story with pictures I wrote about a recent cruise (you'll get a few viewings before you are locked out/buy a sub): Swan's Island - Small Boats Magazine
Also, I strongly agree with Joost on a transom boat. I'm kind of over the double-ender thing. The Sea Pearl had a narrow tombstone transom and the CY is double ended and not only is volume lost over length, but when I'm in the stern trying to fix a rudder issue there is little boat to work with. Transoms are good.
Similar Threads
-
Ocean Explorer - Nano Cruising boat from Perttu and Boatmik
By Boatmik in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat PlansReplies: 87Last Post: 15th August 2012, 03:55 PM -
New Storer Boat Plans?
By Joost in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat PlansReplies: 3Last Post: 21st April 2009, 04:20 AM -
Storer in Wooden Boat
By seajak in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat PlansReplies: 4Last Post: 1st February 2009, 11:17 AM -
Storer Boat Photos - Launchings and others
By Boatmik in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat PlansReplies: 8Last Post: 8th August 2008, 03:06 AM