Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 59
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Tilburg, the Netherlands
    Age
    49
    Posts
    519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    This is where our experiences differ and consequently what we are looking for in a boat. I am mostly sleeping aboard on an anchor, hopefully in a bay or a cove somewhere. The strategy is to find protection for the overnight weather, but sometimes this doesn't always happen and we find we are more exposed than we wanted to be. When this happens it can get uncomfortable and/or we have to move, tend to the anchor, or who knows what. If I could ensure that I was camping ashore everynight, or tying up to a dock, my parameters for the boat would be different.
    You definitely raise a point here. But a sleeping aboard on a small boat on an anchor will very quickly be uncomfortable if there is any wind/waves. Not sure whether anything can be done about this. I fully agree that it is much a different story when able to tie up the boat to a dock or quay (typically the situation here).

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Age
    2010
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Greetings, all—
    Just signed on to join this brainstorm. I can add relevant experience from dinghy cruising in a Francois Vivier designed Ilur. It definitely fits into the shorter/wider end of the spectrum, and has a lot of attributes which strike a very usable balance with regard to the wish list for the new design being imagined. Mine is a standing lug yawl, and I like it well. It has a lovely flat cockpit sole which makes sleeping down low more pleasant. It is 14’8” loa, but with a broad transom, she has very nearly as much usable interior space as a CY. She will daysail with four, handling the weight with no problem, though moving about with 4 adults aboard takes clear communication and thoughtful choreography to avoid stepping on fingers or toes. She is is fine cruising with two adults, but my boat is optimized for cruising solo. Like Callsign, I have rowed the Ilur 15-20 miles in a day when I had to.
    Completely agree with comments lauding carbon spars—on a boat of this magnitude, there would be no need for tabernacles, simple steps and mast partners would be fine, lifting masts into place by hand.
    Also agree with the benefits of flotation chambers which can make lovely storage areas, keeping a boat tidy under way and free of flotsam in a capsize. Dry bags as flotation become flotation unless very well secured.

  4. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,182

    Default

    Hi all, I'm joining in because I've been on Mik's case for a larger boat for a quarter of a century. For me, the time door has closed I suspect, but I'll stick my two bob's worth in anyway.

    My early family cruising was with my wife and two children then aged 3 and 15 months in an 18 foot trailer sailer which was fat, slow, safe and comfortable. We used that boat with fanatical regularity, weekending at least once a month and continued when our third daughter arrived and nothing changed until (we often joke) the time when the total length of us was more than than twice the waterline length of the boat and we couldn't sleep inside.

    Admittedly the boat weighed a lot more than we are talking here, but not a lot of nights were "VERY" uncomfortable. Oh sure, we've been woken lots, and tipped out of bed when a container ship passed, and dragged anchor under a storm front - but that's the joy of small boat cruising!

    While we were expecting our third, I would take the other two, by then aged almost 5 and 3 out for a weekend by myself (with appropriate safety precautions) and was very comfortable doing so. (We used to tow a 7 foot tender as well.) Auxiliary power was by transom mount (no fancy bracket) 6hp outboard.


    Attachment 485980

    In our waterways, camping ashore is rarely an option, and we don't have convenient docks to tie alongside. Cooking was in the cockpit under a boom tent, there was a small marine head in the forepeak, and the boat could handle the fairly vicious chop that our Moreton Bay is notorious for.

    So my dream has always been for a longer thinner better hartley 16. (Do you rember the Cherry Mik? - It did that I think (except for the longer and thinner bit ) https://johncrawfordmarine.com.au/ch...brochure/file?)

    Something with a bit of ballast in the board, to make sailing a bit less of a sporty proposition - and to be a bit more forgiving when kids (or their busy carers) are slow to respond. The thing is on a trailer anyway, so a (tiny) bit more weight won't matter - 145kg hull and deck - 145kg bulb sounds pretty good!

    So - my use would require an envelope that sleeps at least four adults INSIDE, can have a porta potti aboard in a proper stowage spot, room for a cooler and supplies for at least three days and had enough self-righting to be reasonably sure that the boat could look after itself if everything went awry. Rowing just gives something else to stow, but a small elect outboard in this day and age might be cool.

    This is quite possibly way over the horizon given the current direction - but hopefully something to think/talk about. A Cherry 16 for the 21st century please Mik!

    Cheers,

    P

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Tilburg, the Netherlands
    Age
    49
    Posts
    519

    Default

    Welcome to the discussion and some good points raised! In an earlier discussion offline with MIK, I also proposed something very similar (a boat taking the qualities of the Hartley 16 but updated for the 21st century). If going this route, an electric outboard starts making a lot of sense. They are getting better and cheaper all the time.

    Ballast in the board also makes sense to me, it would also make anchoring more comfortable with some weight low down.

    The one difficult wish is, I think, sleeping inside for 4. For me the question is how often people would do this. Most people cruising nowadays do not seem to be young families any longer... So perhaps a boat with sleeping inside for 2 is a better proposition allowing for a nice large cockpit that can take another 2 persons under a boom tent. A larger cockpit is also good for day sailing with 4.

    A very successful boat here in the Netherlands designed in the sixties that slept 4 inside was (some time ago) the Kolibri 560 (560cm long and 200cm wide, cold molded hull with 14 m2 sail area, 1 meter deep fixed keel). But the boat looks pretty cramped in this age. Extended voyages were made with the boat crossing the North Sea to England, etc.


  6. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    The one difficult wish is, I think, sleeping inside for 4. For me the question is how often people would do this. Most people cruising nowadays do not seem to be young families any longer... So perhaps a boat with sleeping inside for 2 is a better proposition allowing for a nice large cockpit that can take another 2 persons under a boom tent. A larger cockpit is also good for day sailing with 4.
    Thanks Joost, and actually I think you are right about the sleeping for four. Perhaps 2 plus 2 is a far better solution.

    My favourite boat of this ilk has always been the Farr 6000 FYD | Farr 6000 (Design 57)

    It has much more volume than is being contemplated here, but seemed to tick all boxes in its day - it was relatively fast, performed very well in all conditions, and was extraordinarily commodious, helped by the pop top and removable cabin aft wall!

    Now if we could pull a foot or two out of the beam and keep all the other good bits, we might be onto something....

  7. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Tilburg, the Netherlands
    Age
    49
    Posts
    519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bitingmidge View Post
    Thanks Joost, and actually I think you are right about the sleeping for four. Perhaps 2 plus 2 is a far better solution.

    My favourite boat of this ilk has always been the Farr 6000 FYD | Farr 6000 (Design 57)
    It has much more volume than is being contemplated here, but seemed to tick all boxes in its day - it was relatively fast, performed very well in all conditions, and was extraordinarily commodious, helped by the pop top and removable cabin aft wall!

    Now if we could pull a foot or two out of the beam and keep all the other good bits, we might be onto something....
    The Farr 6000 is also a boat MIK showed to me. But it is a much larger boat in all respects.

    I must say that I like the looks and function of the Cherry 16 a lot. I agree that a bit leaner and longer boat would be good:
    - dinghy like performance, the boat needs to be light enough as to accomplish a dinghy like feeling
    - lightly ballasted board to make the boat a bit easier to control and more forgiving to sail
    - basic cabin providing sleeping accommodation for 2 (long bunks however a must - what it provides needs to be good and not feel cramped)
    - lean enough so those inclined to do so can still row the boat (though a little electric outboard may be preferable for most)

  8. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    I must say that I like the looks and function of the Cherry 16 a lot. I agree that a bit leaner and longer boat would be good:
    - dinghy like performance, the boat needs to be light enough as to accomplish a dinghy like feeling
    - lightly ballasted board to make the boat a bit easier to control and more forgiving to sail
    - basic cabin providing sleeping accommodation for 2 (long bunks however a must - what it provides needs to be good and not feel cramped)
    - lean enough so those inclined to do so can still row the boat (though a little electric outboard may be preferable for most)
    Well I think we are pretty much in agreement - now to sell Mik!

  9. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    63
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    I met Paul Atkins many years ago while I was working at Duck Flat.

    He had a Cherry 16. It is designed to appeal to the same people who would get a Hartley TS16.

    But smaller and lighter.

    Probably too small and too light. Paul was looking for another boat because the Cherry capsized too quickly and had very little cabin space. The TS16 will capsize too ... and is probably harder to get up. But is much harder to capsize in the first place.

    The TS16 does have width to sprawl about it, but is certainly lacking height ... unless there is a cockpit cover.

    Here are a couple of Cherry 16 pics. It really is a petite boat.

    Cherry 16.jpg

    Cherry 16 a.jpg

    One large person makes an overcrowd in the cabin. It will be all hunching over and trying not to get in each other's way.

    but very easy to for one person to handle into and out of the water.

    Here is a boat test
    Cherry 16 - Brochure.pdf (johncrawfordmarine.com.au)

    MIK

  10. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    63
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    Biting midge mentioned sleeping 4.

    His family had a Careel 18 by David Rose Yachts. It started off as a Duncanson 18 but developed a sailing scene of all its own - many of the large group of owners are still friends now .. 40 years later. Sleeps 4, sail and motors

    careel 18 b.jpg
    Careel 18.jpg

    they weren't known as fast boats, but some could sail them much better than others

    It is worth looking at the next step up. It is a nice family space. But I get the impression that sailing together in an 18ft trailer sailer might have been something that 25 families might do on one weekend 40 years ago.

    Now it really is people doing these kinds of things largely solo. The Netherlands might be a bit of an exception with family style sailing in the Valk. Australia, the USA and possibly the UK are mostly people using simpler boats solo, with occasional sailing friends - often not the same ones every time.

    I'm writing this down ready to be wrong. But In Australia, the Hartley 16 scene, the Jarcat Scene (a decade or two later), the Careel 18 scene, the Heron Scene, the Mirror Scene, the RL24 scene ... well they were family scenes.

    My feeling is it is far too late to try and reinvent something that was wonderful in its era. But for much of the world we are 40 years too late I suspect.

    Is that fair?

    Are we really looking at a motivated solo builder, who will be a solo sailor with company. Does that seem right for most regions. Or does family style sailing really exist as a niche.

    MIK

  11. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    63
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    The Careel 18 model is quite compelling in some ways. And modern building methods might be able to considerably simplify the building.

    But I am not convinced the demand is there for the type.

    though there might be demand for a plan of the type. Might sell a lot of plans perhaps.

    MIK

  12. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Biting midge mentioned sleeping 4.

    His family had a Careel 18 by David Rose Yachts. It started off as a Duncanson 18 but developed a sailing scene of all its own - many of the large group of owners are still friends now .. 40 years later. Sleeps 4, sail and motors

    careel 18 b.jpg
    Careel 18.jpg

    they weren't known as fast boats, but some could sail them much better than others

    It is worth looking at the next step up. It is a nice family space. But I get the impression that sailing together in an 18ft trailer sailer might have been something that 25 families might do on one weekend 40 years ago.

    Now it really is people doing these kinds of things largely solo. The Netherlands might be a bit of an exception with family style sailing in the Valk. Australia, the USA and possibly the UK are mostly people using simpler boats solo, with occasional sailing friends - often not the same ones every time.

    I'm writing this down ready to be wrong. But In Australia, the Hartley 16 scene, the Jarcat Scene (a decade or two later), the Careel 18 scene, the Heron Scene, the Mirror Scene, the RL24 scene ... well they were family scenes.

    My feeling is it is far too late to try and reinvent something that was wonderful in its era. But for much of the world we are 40 years too late I suspect.

    Is that fair?

    Are we really looking at a motivated solo builder, who will be a solo sailor with company. Does that seem right for most regions. Or does family style sailing really exist as a niche.

    MIK
    Mik, I mentioned my Ilur is optimized for solo cruising. My wife enjoys sailing and wants to be able to join me, so I am building a 6 m pocket cruiser with plans to trailer sail it along the Maine Island Trail. It seems that there is a pretty big leaping off point even for sleeping two aboard with respect to space and gear, and it is the inflection point where sail and oar boats give way to pocket cruiser types. For myself, if a boat as slickly fit for purpose as John Welsfords Long Steps or a Vivier Kernic type could be outfitted with sleeping arrangements for two, with flotation and storage sorted so that you’re not up to your eyeballs in dunnage when you’re at anchor and trying to sleep under a boom tent, you’d be getting close to what you described in your original post. The CNC cut Ilur which I built is designed with minicell foam in the space under the cockpit benches...I believe that was to satisfy EU regs for home builders, and it works well, but takes up much space which could have been excellent dual use as flotation tank and storage accessed via hatches. The benches also create a relatively narrow spot between themselves and the aft end of the CB case, which becomes the limiting factor in sleeping on the cockpit sole for two. My wife and I work around this by having her sleep ashore in a camping hammock, with me aboard, whether at anchor or dried out on the beach. That wouldn’t work for some folks, I guess, and there are many places in the US where shoreline access is not allowed, so sleeping aboard is a must. I know these projects have much to do with balancing priorities through compromise, but I think a sail and oar boat which allows two to sleep aboard, with efficient flotation and storage, and an easy to live with unstayed rig is not an impossible lift by any means.

  13. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Tilburg, the Netherlands
    Age
    49
    Posts
    519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Are we really looking at a motivated solo builder, who will be a solo sailor with company. Does that seem right for most regions. Or does family style sailing really exist as a niche.
    Family style trailer sailing also is very limited in the Netherlands nowadays. Most people daysail a Valk, only the hardy (or foolish) take out the boat for longer trips with a family onboard )

    So, I do not think that it makes sense to look at the boat as a family boat but rather a boat normally sailed by a crew of 1 or 2 and on occasion by a larger crew. The GIS is able to do this, but misses some traits that would make it perfect for the job:
    - It gets crowded very easily, especially on longer sails.
    - Difficult to carry gear for overnight trips unless one goes very light weight (best done solo, two-up you need more stuff and it all gets in the way even more quickly)
    - Not much for the crew to do (save for keeping the boat upright).
    - Not possible to sleep onboard, bulkheads get in the way, etc.
    - No all people like sail&oar and whilst the Goat can take a light outboard, it is best not to sail with one on the back (too much weight for the boat).

    A full out cabin sailor means a very substantial boat (a lot of materials, expensive trailer, more expensive rigging, longer building time, etc.). If the boat is typically sailed solo or 2-up, such boat is not necessary anyway.

    I agree that the Cherry is too small not providing enough cabin space. So the boat needs to be a bit longer. To make the boat a bit more docile, a bit more weight in the center board would help. My thoughts are that a cabin on such small boat in any case needs to be viewed as a lightweight tent: it provides dry storage space, a nice place to sleep and place for a porta-potti. So more of a a bivouac and not a normal cabin providing proper seating, etc. A boom tent would be good to extend living space on longer trips if so required. So a more substantial boat than the Goat, but still much in the spirit of it.

    Two boats that come to mind in the above spirit are:
    - Liteboat XP 20
    - RoG Microcruiser 15

  14. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    960

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Are we really looking at a motivated solo builder, who will be a solo sailor with company. Does that seem right for most regions. Or does family style sailing really exist as a niche.

    MIK
    Are we? It seemed Joost was definitely onboard with 2 for sleeping.

    I cruise mostly solo, with other boats in the fleet. However, I would love to have the capability two sleep two comfortably
    on board. That means I'm not breathing in their face and the gear is stowed in such a way that we don't have a mountain of it in the wrong place.

    As far as the conversation has been going, I will say, sleeping two on long bunks, maybe a cabin, day-sailing for 4... this is a substantial boat. I'm not sure you can get the above parameters AND add a skinnier beam for rowing. Something will have to give. Either the sleeping arrangements or the rowing.

    I am 6'2"/188cm

    I am going to be building a Vivier Jewell. The bunks are 6'6"/198cm long, there is a sitting headroom, and the cockpit is huge, can sleep another 6' person or two more shorter ones, all in a 19' package. But the beam is large, and rowing is possible but almost impractical. A yuloh for no wind is the non-motorized method of propulsion. It's a substantial boat, and a serious project.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost
    You definitely raise a point here. But a sleeping aboard on a small boat on an anchor will very quickly be uncomfortable if there is any wind/waves. Not sure whether anything can be done about this. I fully agree that it is much a different story when able to tie up the boat to a dock or quay (typically the situation here).


    Last summer (2020) I slept aboard at anchor 10 nights and 2 ashore. Out of the 10, I had issues on 1 night. Choosing the correct anchorage for the weather conditions is paramount. I have found that I sleep quite well in wind if the water is flat, or that the boat can stay bow-in to the waves. If the wind and waves are counter to each other and I start rolling, it's game over. Being low in the boat, near waterline, is very important for increased comfort.

  15. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Tilburg, the Netherlands
    Age
    49
    Posts
    519

    Default

    Personally I would like to see sleeping onboard for 2.

    I think MIK is referring solo as he sees that is how most of his customers may often use the boat. And he may be correct. But I do think that most would at least want to have the possibility to sleep 2. And for others this is simply a must to consider the design.

    A Vivier Jewel is a very large boat. A couple of raiding friends sail one (red hull with carbon masts - you have probably seen photos of it on the web). They used a Torqeedo for one season but now have a petrol outboard: not enough power in the Torqeedo to be reliable in heavy weather. They also have a Seil and that boat is the one they use for raiding. The Jewel has proven just too much to row any distance (also clearing bridges takes for ever, there is a lot of standing and running rigging). The Seil on the other hand rows very nicely, easily day sails 4 and provides a nice stable platform for sleeping.

    I agree that something would need to give for a boat sleeping 2 in comfort and day sailing for 4. It probably needs to be the rowing. Just make it a damn good sailboat! I also think that something simpler, lighter, more minimalist and faster than a Jewel is possible.

  16. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post

    Probably too small and too light. Paul was looking for another boat because the Cherry capsized too quickly and had very little cabin space.
    Which is why they never sold in numbers, but there were reasonable fleets for a time, filled with die-hards.

    Agree with all of the above, but solving the problem is why YOU get the big bucks! Just need to make it bigger, more stable, simpler to build and lighter = simple!

    My recollection of the Cherry is that it was infinitely simpler than the Hartley - a proper evolution in that sense. A cherry but longer and narrower with ballast is not a cherry!

    Perhaps we should be looking at the Hartley 21 as a starting point - then "scaling" it down? (metaphorically speaking) Adding lightness equating to about two thirds of it's current displacement would be a good start! The reason I am suggesting this is that it is may be easier to start with a bigger volume then subtract stuff that's not necessary to fill the "brief" - (a couple of spare bunks, a built in galley), then reduce the hull volume accordingly, rather than being fixed on a particular length and having to "fill it out".

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Ocean Explorer - Nano Cruising boat from Perttu and Boatmik
    By Boatmik in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 15th August 2012, 03:55 PM
  2. New Storer Boat Plans?
    By Joost in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 21st April 2009, 04:20 AM
  3. Storer in Wooden Boat
    By seajak in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 1st February 2009, 11:17 AM
  4. Storer Boat Photos - Launchings and others
    By Boatmik in forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 8th August 2008, 03:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •