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  1. #1
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    Default A larger storer boat for cruising and performance.

    It has been some time since I used this forum so directly.

    But it is a good chance now.

    The reason is we want the input of Christophe, Callsign222 who doesn't uses facebook.

    You may have seen the Viola sailing canoe that Joost Engelen (another former regular here) jointly developed - effectively a purists sailing dinghy with a canoe like platform for light weight and easy transport (75lb hull - which is important to this discussion)

    The Viola is shown to the left.

    The boat on the right is the recently designed "Kombi Canoe" also developed with Joost. A 50/50 sail and paddle canoe.

    A larger storer boat for cruising and performance.-viola-vs-kombi-canoes-2-jpg
    I'm always being asked to draw up a "longer Goat Island Skiff" but that feels wrong. The GIS is just on the cusp for two people to lift. Make it bigger and it is no longer the light and simple boat the standard one is. And also lose that instant "trimmability" with every little wave and every little extra gust to pull away from (often) much larger boats metre by metre.

    And Joost's two kids are getting bigger. Still OK in the Goat but may start cutting into performance in the next 3 years!

    The boats we are thinking about as fitting in the same niche are great boats. Every one has great strengths and some weaknesses.

    My mental list is
    1. Caledonia Yawl
    2. Sea Pearl (monohull configuration)
    3. The European design the Valk (I hafve a feeling i have the name wrong - joost will correct me) a family racing cross between a dinghy and a keelboat. Often sailed in RAID events with three to 5 aboard sailing hard and wielding paddles (oars are not allowed in many Netherlands events).
    4. Some of john Welsfords bigger sailing dinghies.


    My current idea is something like a blown up (in proportion) Viola with a choice of two rigs. A Sloop using a sliding gunter main for a modern touch. Here is an 15er yacht from the prewar period - look at the rig ... not the surplus of battens!! And probably a less stable hull so the rig size will come down a bit - so the boat will be much longer than the rig from jib tack to main clew.

    A larger storer boat for cruising and performance.-renjolle-jolle-jpg

    The other version would be a balance lug yawl. Some variation along the lines of the BETH rig but with a larger mizzen.

    A larger storer boat for cruising and performance.-beth-3-corrected-jpg

    The other idea that points somewhere interesting are the Swedish Sailing Canoes. Though these are quite heavily ballasted and basically a short handed boat.

    A larger storer boat for cruising and performance.-canoe-class-swedish-jpg

    Current ideas


    1. kindof liftable hullweight. 14ft Viola is 75lbs. an 18 footer might be around 145lb and a 20 footer around 200. Before considering ballast.
    2. sailable in family mode with ballast and performance mode with less
    3. With ballast capable of coastal cruising on good weather reports
    4. Handled by one person (as that is often what happens with family recreational sailing) but busy enough to keep a keen crew interested.
    5. Works with oars.
    6. Easily rightable from capsize (I've been here before - and too easy can be a liability if the crew falls off.
    7. Interesting and pretty (that is my job as well as the numbers)
    8. Righting after capsize with minimal water aboard.


    That's kind of it for now ... Joost will be along in a bit. And along the line Christophe.

    Best Regards
    MIK
    (Michael Storer)
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  3. #2
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    Default

    One side note, there are a number of things intervening before this can be turned into a plan.

    I've finally got the 12ft Son of Goat underway. But I also have an admin employee for the sailmaking and I am trying to get a Customer Management program going. It has been weeks of slog.

    So I would say ... a few months away ... but I need to get the ideas in my head.

    MIK

  4. #3
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    You have the name correct MIK, it is a Valk. Designed by Van der Stadt. It is a keelboat with a 150kg keel and appr. 6.5 meters long, 2 meters wide and 90cm draft. The wooden ones are proper race boats and pretty quick (the design stems back to 1939). Most boats you see on the water nowadays are polyester however and it is used everywhere for renting and sailing schools. For a couple of reasons: pretty quick, cheap, very simple rigging that works (gaff sloop measuring 17.5 m2 in total), the possibility to carry camping kit for 4 persons and the ability to sleep onboard. They are self-bailing (double floor with the cockpit sole above the water line). Based on the same lines Van der Stadt designed a couple of hard chined Ocean racers (Zeeslang, Zeevalk, etc.) that were very successful.

    Some of the qualities appreciated in the Valk may however also be valid for this new boat:
    - day sailing for 4
    - lockers for camp cruising kit (for 2 in our case)
    - sleeping on board for 2 would be a big bonus for this type of boat

    This would mean that longer trips are possible with the boat. One other important point to consider is ease of building.

    The rigs you are proposing above make sense to me. The more modern sliding gunter sloop would the faster rig and good for upwind performance and boat handling (quick tacking). Spars would still be reasonably short which helps during transport. And it looks great. The lug rig with mizzen has certain advantages including cheaper rigging and the possibility to trim out the boat for longer stretches. Always good to have options.

  5. #4
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    Apologies about the late reply!

    Look, first and foremost X-Boat needs a mission. What's the mission, the objective, the end goal of this boat? Is it a single-purpose boat or a jack-of-all-master-of-none boat?

    Joost wants lockers for camping and sleeping aboard for two, Mik wants to keep the weight down to 145lbs for an 18 footer.... !?!? These things start to become incompatible without a clear mission.

    Is it a cruising boat? Or a RAID boat? Or a go fast day boat that can be stretched with some imagination into a camping boat (albeit uncomfortable and less optimized for cruising)?

    If you want solid dinghy cruising experience from me, I can definitely do that. I can speak authoritatively on the Sea Pearl and the CY for sure. I could write pages about the boats, but in terms of efficiency, what are we most concerned with?

    Exciting project, for sure! Viola is just awesome how it fills the design brief. XBoat should be the same.

  6. #5
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    Yes, a mission profile needs to be determined for X-Boat. In any case it needs to be different from the Goat.

    I would think that the boat needs to be able to fulfil multiple purposes. A boat that is good at only one think may not appeal much. Also some requirements may translate well across different uses.

    All of MIKís boats are (relatively) light so that is a given. I would be hesitant however to make that a leading factor as it may impact other crucial requirements much.

    What I think makes sense:

    • Fast cruising boat that can be used for raids. Designing it the other way around may mean that the boat becomes too extreme and not have much of an appeal.
    • Proper day-sailing for 4 adults. Kind of a must because otherwise there would be no differentiation with the GIS.
    • More than one sail for a couple of reasons. One is to keep the crew busy. But also a singly lug sail becomes too large and unwieldly to handle. In any case the rig needs to be easy to reef and set/strike. Another must is that it goes to windward well and is easy to manoeuvre.
    • I think that when you want to go camp-cruising, it quickly becomes a 2-person boat as to be able to carry the supplies, etc.
    • One of the things most often asked for is sleeping onboard (even for the Viola and Kombi canoes!) and I think that a larger boat should be able to do that. It depends much on what the starting point is for the design. MIK and I have briefly talked about a boat that takes on the qualities of the Hartley TS16 but in a more modern and lighter package. So some basic interior space for 2. But sleeping under a cockpit tent is another viable option and allow for a lighter approach like a souped up Viola or a boat taking hints from the International 110 or Swedish canoes. Many of the raid boats here have the 2-person crews sleep under a cockpit tent (Welsford Pathfinder, Ougthred Caledonian Yawls, Vivier Seils).
    • The GIS provides very good performance but lacks one thing that would be nice for dinghy cruising: there is simply not much space dedicated for storing gear. Yes, you could use waterproof bags but the problem I have with this solution is that they take up a lot of space in the cockpit. Especially in areas where you need to get the mast up and down often or row certain sections (certainly the case here in the Netherlands), the bags get in the way pretty quick.
    • Secondary propulsion is important. When I compare the boats mentioned above to the GIS, the GIS is much better. The Pathfinder is too heavy, wind and high sided. Also the rig gets in the way much as it typically sits in a tabernacle. The Caledonians are better to row, but too wide and still quite heavy. But this is much a discussion point, I think. Is it acceptable if the boat can be rowed some distance or is it to be a true sail & oar boat. Another question is for how many persons the rowing be laid out for? I do not think that a boat that requires a crew of 2-4 on the oars as a design winner (letís face it, realistically the boat will be used by a crew of 2 mostly and 4 only on occasion).
    • I do think that the boat needs to have minimalistic, clean and simple lines (like the Viola and Kombi). A lot of persons are drawn by a certain style and people typically do not move across them easily. So from a styling perspective it needs to provide something different as to carve a niche for itself.


    Anyway, some thoughts from me to get the ball rolling when it comes to setting the design parameters for X-Boat.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Apologies about the late reply!

    Look, first and foremost X-Boat needs a mission. What's the mission, the objective, the end goal of this boat? Is it a single-purpose boat or a jack-of-all-master-of-none boat?

    Joost wants lockers for camping and sleeping aboard for two, Mik wants to keep the weight down to 145lbs for an 18 footer.... !?!? These things start to become incompatible without a clear mission.

    Is it a cruising boat? Or a RAID boat? Or a go fast day boat that can be stretched with some imagination into a camping boat (albeit uncomfortable and less optimized for cruising)?
    The Goat was meant to be a daysailing boat for two. It was meant to be fun to sail. It was designed to carry more weight at times. That was about the full list. And two sheets of ply long

    Simple construction
    Good Looks
    Light weight
    Generous sail area

    It wasn't meant for RAIDing (that wasn't even dreamed of when it was designed). But it has moved into each of the roles you mention adequately or more than adequately. It wasn't even really meant for multi day cruises - and you were one of the first to do some really adventurous stuff off the coast of Maine.

    But of course ... after several years of amazing journeys and photos ... you moved on.

    Christophe's Blog starting with the GIS and ending up with the Sea Pearl and then the Caledonia Yawl is here

    The Goat didn't do the next stage for you. What was it that made you make the next step on and pass the Goat onto a new owner (Christophe's "IAZP" now lives at the Sebago Canoe Club on the Periphery of New York).

    If you want solid dinghy cruising experience from me, I can definitely do that. I can speak authoritatively on the Sea Pearl and the CY for sure. I could write pages about the boats, but in terms of efficiency, what are we most concerned with?

    Exciting project, for sure! Viola is just awesome how it fills the design brief. XBoat should be the same.
    So having moved on through the SeaPearl and the Caledonia Yawl ... what is it you must have and what is it that you most miss. What is the unattained target that you have in mind for this next size of boat up from the GIS.

    Best Regards to All
    MIK

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Yes, a mission profile needs to be determined for X-Boat. In any case it needs to be different from the Goat.

    I would think that the boat needs to be able to fulfil multiple purposes. A boat that is good at only one think may not appeal much. Also some requirements may translate well across different uses.

    All of MIK’s boats are (relatively) light so that is a given. I would be hesitant however to make that a leading factor as it may impact other crucial requirements much.

    SNIP



    Anyway, some thoughts from me to get the ball rolling when it comes to setting the design parameters for X-Boat.
    Lockers plus context. That is a nice filling out of a potential spec.

    Sea Pearl is 19
    Caledonia Yawl is 19
    Valk is 6.5m (22ft) designed as a two person racing dinghy with cruising potential - often sailed with four aboard for distance events.

    Then the other way to go is shorter and wider ... like the Hartley TS16. There may be problems with this approach for rowing though.

  9. #8
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    One thing that does stick out as a surprise is that tabernacles, while making it easier to get masts up and down, do mean they go up the middle of the boat unless the pin is fairly high set.

    One thing that has very much changed in recent years is rig weight. That carbon tubes, particularly plain untapered ones, have become commodity items in several regions.

    And we are seeing weights of spars come down to around 1/3 of what they were with hollow wood construction.

    The original 20lb timber Goat Island Skiff mast was OK to get in and out. But 7 or 8lb carbon mast means that it is possible for a teenager to remove it and replace it underway without a tabernacle

    Perhaps an open back partner as we see in some boats makes sense so that the mast can be dropped down to any angle and slid forward or to the side to keep out of the way of the rowing station/s.

    Screenshot_37.jpg

    It might seem like too early a point to mention this, but it does define the way the boat works. If rigs are designed around sail areas that a person can handle by themselves, then mast weight and mast handling is probably one of the close definitions for the next size of boat up.

    And it is an area that has changed tremendously in a short time span.

    MIK

  10. #9
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    I am going to reply in-line below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post

    What I think makes sense:

    • Fast cruising boat that can be used for raids. Designing it the other way around may mean that the boat becomes too extreme and not have much of an appeal


    Agreed. Aim for middle of the road for increased flexibility on either side. It should perform well and be a fast boat, but not necessarily be the meanest, fastest, most on-the-edge.



    • Proper day-sailing for 4 adults. Kind of a must because otherwise there would be no differentiation with the GIS.


    This means a big boat in length and beam. There is not getting around this it's a question of physical space. I currently have the Caledonia Yawl at 19.5x6.5 and 4 adults is the most I would want in the boat and only for a day-sail, though I know people who have put many more in it. The boat is quite spacious in the interior but it is set up in a an oddly inefficient way. There are knees from the gunwale to the side thwarts that are exactly where one wants to sit, the seat is narrow and the back hits in the inwale at a place just below the life-jacket. It's not a nice ergonomic interior for many people for a longer cruise. Interior space is difficult to design correctly, I think. Vivier does a nice job combining flotation, lockers, and thwarts in a way that is madly efficient and smart and comfortable.



    • More than one sail for a couple of reasons. One is to keep the crew busy. But also a singly lug sail becomes too large and unwieldly to handle. In any case the rig needs to be easy to reef and set/strike. Another must is that it goes to windward well and is easy to manoeuvre.


    Agreed. And keep it simple. I am a bit wary of the gunter. I think it looks sexy as hell but possibly finnicky to mate spars and sails and not have a good efficient sail form without a lot of fiddling. I like fiddling, but if the mast is coming down a lot, this type of fiddling should be kept at a minimum. One positive about the gunter is that maybe one only needs to drop the top-mast and reduce the amount of times the entire mast needs to come down.



    • I think that when you want to go camp-cruising, it quickly becomes a 2-person boat as to be able to carry the supplies, etc.


    Agreed.



    • One of the things most often asked for is sleeping onboard (even for the Viola and Kombi canoes!) and I think that a larger boat should be able to do that. It depends much on what the starting point is for the design. MIK and I have briefly talked about a boat that takes on the qualities of the Hartley TS16 but in a more modern and lighter package. So some basic interior space for 2. But sleeping under a cockpit tent is another viable option and allow for a lighter approach like a souped up Viola or a boat taking hints from the International 110 or Swedish canoes. Many of the raid boats here have the 2-person crews sleep under a cockpit tent (Welsford Pathfinder, Ougthred Caledonian Yawls, Vivier Seils).


    I sleep aboard my CY, and many people do, but I'm not sure what they are doing to sleep two people. The rig and oars take up a lot of room. Two people could squeeze in the spaces next to the CB trunk, one on each side but it's tight in there and one would have the rig above them dripping water if it starts to rain (the luff end of the rig sticks out of the tent). I have been sleeping on my floor boards elevated on the thwarts, slightly off center between the aft and center thwart, and this has been quite nice, but when the wind picks up and the boat starts rolling I am very uncomfortable and get tossed around as I am far above the waterline. Again, I don't think two people would fit with the rig on one side taking up a lot of room. Last time I camped aboard I needed sleep for the next day's crossing and I ended up crawling into the space next to the CB trunk, and the way the interior is set up it's way too tight. The thwart is low, the CB trunk supports and vertical supports for the side thwarts get in the way, but at least I wasn't rocking as much. I am thinking of tearing everything out in the interior and building a wide shallow floor that will offer some support to the hull and also open up sleeping space to the left and right of the CB trunk. Sailing will be done either from sitting on the rail, or on the deck, low, like in the Goat. It's not ideal, I would like something in between but I also want to be comfortable sleeping aboard when the weather pipes up.

    The Sea Pearl was very comfortable for ONE person. The center cockpit sole was wide and at waterline and there was no CB trunk. But two people was impossible. After a few years I got tired of crawling into the "Tunnel of Doom" as I called it, and was happy to be on my wide bunk on the CY, only to find that then I was rocking and rolling and heavily exposed to the wind that would slip under the tent, and I was crawling into an even worse "Tunnel of Doom" which I found very ironic, and frustrating.

    Here's the thing: I know we're not in a cabin boat, but if people want to do this seriously the sleeping arrangement has to be solid and in a way that crew can quickly get up and move forward to adjust anchor or row out or whatever if something happens in the middle of the night.



    • The GIS provides very good performance but lacks one thing that would be nice for dinghy cruising: there is simply not much space dedicated for storing gear. Yes, you could use waterproof bags but the problem I have with this solution is that they take up a lot of space in the cockpit. Especially in areas where you need to get the mast up and down often or row certain sections (certainly the case here in the Netherlands), the bags get in the way pretty quick.


    The GIS is definitely a "go-light" boat. I stuffed airy things like the tent in the forward compartment and heavy things went into bags under the middle thwart, a bucket up forward. With two people it's almost impossible but doable using ultra-light camping principles. BUT my CY is also a total disaster. The bigger boat invites more stuff, which I definitely now want, it's nice having some amenities. There is so much volume in that boat, but since I don't have any built-in air tanks the boat sinks to above the gunwales when it capsizes (I have tested this). I have had to add a large amount of flotation around the hull with dedicated air bags. By the time I'm done and I throw in my camping bags, buckets, anchor basket, etc., I am literally crowded out of the boat. It's insane. I don't have much stuff either but I am swimming in bags and gear. I think, in this sense, the tanked version of the CY is much better as I can put away a lot of the camping gear into the buoyancy tanks without losing much buoyancy (tents, sleeping bags, clothes, etc, which are high volume but mostly air) and then have more personal space in the boat instead of getting crowded out.

    Some people like to say that their dry-bags full of stuff are also buoyancy but I have found, in practice, that when I capsize if they are not lashed in twenty-ways-to-Sunday they pop out and bob uselessly on top of the water. Also, dry bags are usually compressed and the air evacuated, making them less buoyant. Better to stuff the dry stuff loose and organized into large built in compartments and keep the cockpit area open and easier to move about.




    • Secondary propulsion is important. When I compare the boats mentioned above to the GIS, the GIS is much better. The Pathfinder is too heavy, wind and high sided. Also the rig gets in the way much as it typically sits in a tabernacle. The Caledonians are better to row, but too wide and still quite heavy. But this is much a discussion point, I think. Is it acceptable if the boat can be rowed some distance or is it to be a true sail & oar boat. Another question is for how many persons the rowing be laid out for? I do not think that a boat that requires a crew of 2-4 on the oars as a design winner (letís face it, realistically the boat will be used by a crew of 2 mostly and 4 only on occasion).


    My Sea Pearl was a better sailing boat than the CY, but it was a terrible pain to row. The narrow hull, flat bottom, lack of skeg, and pointy-bow made directional integrity a real pain. It took work to keep her going straight, or dropping the leeboards a bit on either side and creating more drag. It wasn't fast, it was work. The CY rows much better, but is slow. I would count on 1.8-2.2 kts depending on your energy level and the distance one needs to row. I have rowed both boats over 15 mile distances. The CY is better, but I want to sink both boats to the bottom by the end of the day. My oars on the CY I think, are 11' long. 10' for the Sea Pearl.



    • I do think that the boat needs to have minimalistic, clean and simple lines (like the Viola and Kombi). A lot of persons are drawn by a certain style and people typically do not move across them easily. So from a styling perspective it needs to provide something different as to carve a niche for itself.


    Anyway, some thoughts from me to get the ball rolling when it comes to setting the design parameters for X-Boat.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post



    So having moved on through the SeaPearl and the Caledonia Yawl ... what is it you must have and what is it that you most miss. What is the unattained target that you have in mind for this next size of boat up from the GIS.

    Best Regards to All
    MIK
    The Goat is a boat I wish I had back just because it's so easy to trailer and fun to sail. I think it was a fine one-person camping boat if the sailer was/is camping ashore. In a pinch and with know-how it's a good but not great 2 person camping boat (obviously camping ashore). The boat was fast, mostly weatherly, and could be dragged over things. I always felt safe in it when cruising. Going upwind in big seas was not it's strong suit however, and it was wet and poundy in these conditions and I lost a lot of pointing ability. One day I was cruising with my friend Jon in his Phoenix III and we were pounding upwind in big seas. He was comfortable sitting on his cockpit sole, pinching the boat and mainsail, and the round hull made dependable, albeit slow, progress to windward. I was alternating sitting on the rail/sitting on the floor, the bow getting tossed to leeward, and pointing significantly less than he was upwind. It was hours of wet and cold while he was dry and comfortable.

    Reefing too, was a bit of a pain, though at that time I did not have a mizzen on the Goat. Going forward was a little perilous and the boat would swing abeam the wind and it was uncomfortable putting in a reef.

    Also, I was making larger passages in more open water and did want something with a little more stability and hands-off sailing. This meant two sails and some mass for inertia.

    I got the Sea Pearl. This boat was fast, safe, a little wet sometimes though, but could sail upwind very well, and had very easy reefing. The reefing was so easy, as the sails were loose footed and wrapped around the mast. I loved it. The shallow draft, the speed, the comfortable convertible cabin and sleeping platform, all top notch. Over time the sleeping arrangements started to get to me as I am 6'2" and was missing the headspace. My ultra-light tent I backpack with has more vertical space than the Sea Pearl cabin, but it kept me dry, warm, and out of the wind. The Sea Pearl is one of the finest sailing boats I've ever had the pleasure to sail. I could make her do anything-- sail backwards, sideways, over 5" of water, forward though nasty chop, no-hands, anything I wanted. The storage space was smart and I could pack everything away and have clear access to anything in the boat without bags underfoot or getting in the way.

    Unfortunately her fatal flaw was that if she capsized she immediately turtled and was unrecoverable. This happened to me off the coast of Maine and I had to get rescued. It was a dramatic afternoon and I'm glad it turned out as well as it did because the consequences were as high as they get. I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty here, but basically a large windshift from off the aft quarter to downwind while coming down a wave on a broad reach pushed the powerful mizzen over. I let go of the mainsail but the mizzen, sheeted for a reach, overpowered the rudder and the boat turned into the wind and got pushed over at the same time. It was immediate, fast, and unstoppable. There is a lot to unpack here, but that's another book entirely.

    I spent several months and several capsizes attempting to truly rectify this flaw. Without halyards and shrouds or any ability to add things easily to a mast that depends on reefing the sail via turning the mast and wrapping it, the solution was an ungainly engineered Hobie-cat like buoyancy ball at the top. They needed to be LARGE to stop the incredible weight of the boat as it rolled over, I tried many different sizes and the biggest buoy I could buy was the only one that worked. Aerodynamic drag, more weight aloft, and I would need two of them for redundancy reasons, were the reasons I cancelled the project and sadly sold the boat. A halyard sail would have opened up more options.

    Enter the CY. A fast, stable, dry boat. I can recover it after capsize. It's a safe boat. Lot of interior volume, but weirdly drawn in such a way that the space is not used as efficiently as it could. She needs lots of flotation. Her handling is poor compared to the GIS or SP. She points badly and in big seas tacking is a real chore. I have the 4 strake Mk1 boat. The skeg is bigger than the 7 strake option, maybe that is part of the issue. I'm working on it and slowly improving performance with foiled rudder, CB is next. I find she has lots of weather helm, a lot. I'm reducing this too but incrementally, there doesn't appear to be an easy fix on this and I don't know why. I could balance the SP to anything I wanted but I can have the mizzen completely luffing and still by white-knuckling the tiller to keep her from swinging into the wind. I have moved the mainsail backwards and forwards by feet, and can't get it totally under control. We're getting there but it's not self-evident and is taking me some serious time to figure out.

    The sleeping area is sub-optimal compared to the amount of interior volume I have. As I mentioned I'm thinking of knocking everything out of the interior, installing a forward and aft buoyancy compartment and then laying out of a giant mid-level/waterline floor, with no center thwart, side thwarts, or floorboards. Going for a ballroom type floor throughout the middle of the boat to provide big sleeping spaces that are below the gunwale and protected.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    One thing that does stick out as a surprise is that tabernacles, while making it easier to get masts up and down, do mean they go up the middle of the boat unless the pin is fairly high set.

    One thing that has very much changed in recent years is rig weight. That carbon tubes, particularly plain untapered ones, have become commodity items in several regions.

    And we are seeing weights of spars come down to around 1/3 of what they were with hollow wood construction.

    The original 20lb timber Goat Island Skiff mast was OK to get in and out. But 7 or 8lb carbon mast means that it is possible for a teenager to remove it and replace it underway without a tabernacle

    Perhaps an open back partner as we see in some boats makes sense so that the mast can be dropped down to any angle and slid forward or to the side to keep out of the way of the rowing station/s.

    Screenshot_37.jpg

    It might seem like too early a point to mention this, but it does define the way the boat works. If rigs are designed around sail areas that a person can handle by themselves, then mast weight and mast handling is probably one of the close definitions for the next size of boat up.

    And it is an area that has changed tremendously in a short time span.

    MIK
    I got a carbon mast for the CY. I am never going back. It's the best thing I did, especially with a large lug rig. The mast does not bend, so I can get sufficient luff tension, and striking the mast is far easier. The money for the carbon rig is equivalent to the timber + time + skill needed to make a birdsmouth. I am bullish on this, the carbon mast is The Way.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    I got a carbon mast for the CY. I am never going back. It's the best thing I did, especially with a large lug rig. The mast does not bend, so I can get sufficient luff tension, and striking the mast is far easier. The money for the carbon rig is equivalent to the timber + time + skill needed to make a birdsmouth. I am bullish on this, the carbon mast is The Way.
    Yes, I agree. It makes handling so much easier and removes the need for tabernacles, gates in mast partners, etc. Pricey but much worth the investment. After 10 years I recently changed my timber box mast on my Goat (9.2 kg) for a carbon mast (4.2 kg) and love it.

    To make full use of the advantages or carbon, a freestanding rig makes most sense and that would point towards a rig like the Sea Pearl has or a lug rig. But... it also depends on how much this is to be a sail & oar boat. For a sail&oar boat it is a must, in my opinion, to be able to get the rig out of the rower's way quickly. You do not want the mast left standing as it gives a lot of resistance and a mast in the middle of the boat is a problem.

    On the other hand if the boat is only be rowed short distances (so a sail boat that can be rowed), less optimal arrangements towards rowing may become acceptable. This may be determined mostly by how important sleeping on board the boat is (if felt very important, a cabin starts making a lot of sense).

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Lockers plus context. That is a nice filling out of a potential spec.

    Sea Pearl is 19
    Caledonia Yawl is 19
    Valk is 6.5m (22ft) designed as a two person racing dinghy with cruising potential - often sailed with four aboard for distance events.

    Then the other way to go is shorter and wider ... like the Hartley TS16. There may be problems with this approach for rowing though.
    A transom or double-ender makes much difference in displacement. A transom will mean a shorter boat for the same volume.

  15. #14
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    P1130991 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    This is how this CY (4 strakes) does it when sleeping on board. Masts are normally left standing. There is a collar in the tent to make it water tight where the mast passes through it.

    This boat does not raise the floorboards but rather uses a roll up bamboe slatted base to put the self inflatable air mattresses on. It works okay in a sheltered spot. If possible, the crew however always pitches a tent on shore (simply more comfortable), but this does give them options when pitching a tent onshore is not possible.
    Last edited by Joost; 10th Dec 2020 at 02:56 AM. Reason: Correcting photo link

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    P1130991 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    This is how this CY (4 strakes) does it when sleeping on board. Masts are normally left standing. There is a collar in the tent to make it water tight where the mast passes through it.

    This boat does not raise the floorboards but rather uses a roll up bamboe slatted base to put the self inflatable air mattresses on. It works okay in a sheltered spot. If possible, the crew however always pitches a tent on shore (simply more comfortable), but this does give them options when pitching a tent onshore is not possible.
    This is where our experiences differ and consequently what we are looking for in a boat. I am mostly sleeping aboard on an anchor, hopefully in a bay or a cove somewhere. The strategy is to find protection for the overnight weather, but sometimes this doesn't always happen and we find we are more exposed than we wanted to be. When this happens it can get uncomfortable and/or we have to move, tend to the anchor, or who knows what. If I could ensure that I was camping ashore everynight, or tying up to a dock, my parameters for the boat would be different.

    The bamboo bedding + CY combination is ideal for this, they can make a large platform, tent in the entirety of the boat from stem-to-stern, and not have to worry about: wind in the tent, rolling, dragging anchor, rowing, etc.

    Here's a story with pictures I wrote about a recent cruise (you'll get a few viewings before you are locked out/buy a sub): Swan's Island - Small Boats Magazine

    Also, I strongly agree with Joost on a transom boat. I'm kind of over the double-ender thing. The Sea Pearl had a narrow tombstone transom and the CY is double ended and not only is volume lost over length, but when I'm in the stern trying to fix a rudder issue there is little boat to work with. Transoms are good.

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