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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddles View Post
    Easy enough to do with a sharp plane. I don't know why people make such a fuss about them.
    Richard
    I reckon you've got the reason right there Richard. Sharp.
    People buy your average plane from a shop, try it and it tears great chunks from their wood, they get frustrated and the plane is never used again. Planes aren't generally sold in working condition ( except premium brands like Lie-Nielson), and people aren't generally taught how to sharpen blades, or set up a plane. Those two things are central to so much fun with wood. Sharpening can be fun, and very good, calming therapy.
    What caused the Pacific War? A book to read: here

    http://middlething.blogspot.com/

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob540 View Post
    I reckon you've got the reason right there Richard. Sharp.
    People buy your average plane from a shop, try it and it tears great chunks from their wood, they get frustrated and the plane is never used again. Planes aren't generally sold in working condition ( except premium brands like Lie-Nielson), and people aren't generally taught how to sharpen blades, or set up a plane. Those two things are central to so much fun with wood. Sharpening can be fun, and very good, calming therapy.
    My number 4 is unbranded, looks cheap (the blade is wafer thin compared to some I've seen) and was found very second hand at a trash and treasure market

    The other secret is not to have your plane set too deep. One of the joys of life is peeling off a shaving you can see through

    Sharpening? I'm a mug when it comes to sharpening but I got it right when I sharpened this one last, not only is it sharp but the edge is lasting.

    I messed about with sand paper and the scary system for a long time and although I could get the mythical edge you could shave with (yep, bare forearms ), the edges didn't last. If I remember rightly, and it's been 12 months since I sharpened her, I used a sharpening stone last time - it's been so long because I haven't done enough wood work in recent times. My 'dirty' chisel is holding her edge too, and she gets used to clean up epoxy, to scrape pencil lines and poxy off timber, to sharpen pencils, etc - I've got good chisels for joinery.

    Richard

  4. #78
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob540 View Post
    I reckon you've got the reason right there Richard. Sharp.
    People buy your average plane from a shop, try it and it tears great chunks from their wood, they get frustrated and the plane is never used again. Planes aren't generally sold in working condition ( except premium brands like Lie-Nielson), and people aren't generally taught how to sharpen blades, or set up a plane. Those two things are central to so much fun with wood. Sharpening can be fun, and very good, calming therapy.
    Rob it wasn't until I started reading this forum, you know the plane come sharpening threads that I came to understand the joy of a truly sharp plane. It certainly opens up a whole new world to the novice self taught woodworker. I went on to buy a Veritas low angle Jack and really started to understand what a plane could and should do.
    Then I weakened and got the total sharpening kit diamond stones etc. so I don't have any excuses for using a blunt blade.

    I agree I wonder how many people have had their intial woodworking experience spoiled by not knowing what I well set up plane can do and then give it away.

  5. #79
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    There's certainly joy to be had Mike. I was taught to use oil stones, but have been much happier for the last ten years or so with good flat (Japanese) water stones.
    Richard, I think the best way to set up a long lasting edge (given that the steel is up to it) is first, not too fine a secondary bevel angle, and second, to pay particular attention to polishing the back of the blade flat and really shiny. If you do that once and really well, it sets up all subsequent sharpenings. If the back of the blade is pitted or rusty, no amount of careful sharpening of the bevel will give you a real edge because the pitting will undermine the texture of the micro bevel.
    (in my humble opinion)
    What caused the Pacific War? A book to read: here

    http://middlething.blogspot.com/

  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob540 View Post
    (in my humble opinion)
    Humble shmumble....spot on in my inexperienced novice view of things

  7. #81
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    Back to boat building Richard I'm jealous I am desperate to spend time in the shed to get things progressed but instead spent the day gardening.

    Strict orders I've been under, I shall not deviate from the assigned task she said.

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by m2c1Iw View Post
    Back to boat building Richard I'm jealous I am desperate to spend time in the shed to get things progressed but instead spent the day gardening.

    Strict orders I've been under, I shall not deviate from the assigned task she said.
    Serves you right for being good at it. Kill a few beloved plants and you'll be banished to the shed in no time

    Richard

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddles View Post
    Serves you right for being good at it. Kill a few beloved plants and you'll be banished to the shed in no time

    Richard
    Done that they keep reappearing.

  10. #84
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    Jul 2008
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    Fenwick, Michigan
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    From Richard:

    First job - cut the scarfs. Easy enough to do with a sharp plane. I don't know why people make such a fuss about them, especially all the stuffing about making fancy jigs and the like. Not needed. I simply marked either side of the stick, clamped it in the vice and planed it down. Well under five minutes for each scarf so doing the eight needed wasn't a chore, more of a pleasure actually because I enjoy working with the plane.

    You can see my method of clamping in the photos. The side blocks were cut from the same sticks used for the logs, deliberately so both for thickness and to have the same width. The big problem with scarf joints is that the sticks like to slide down the angled face of the joint and it's easy to misalign the two sticks making the joint either too fat or too thin.


    Well, I'm one of those who made a fuss (strictly an internal debate - sometimes the voices in my head make sense) about cutting scarfs. I also made a jig to use with a laminate trimmer and I like the way it works. Considering I will be scarfing 17' lengths for the chine logs, inwales, gunwales and caps I felt making the jig was worth it.

    On the other hand (using that phrase is mandatory - used to be a lawyer), I haven't tried cutting the scarfs with a plane. I convinced myself I could not consistently make matching cuts even with a Japanese saw (which I like very much, and appreciate more each time I use it). But I have gained some measure of comfort with my planes (block and jack) so I'll experiment with using a plane to cut a scarf joint.

    I must have absorbed your glue up methods through osmosis as the test scarf I did a month ago followed that course (with the exception of the quick clamp - don't have any of those so didn't use one). Friends had cautioned me to use enough weight to hold the joint together but to make sure the joint doesn't slip. Their method seemed to involve balancing a weight on top of the joint pressing the pieces together. This seems to encourage slipping, and I figured I'd try using sandwiching the joint between two slabs of wood. I used two pieces of 1/2" ply cut to match the width of the pieces being glued. A couple of bar clamps and a little care produced a nice joint without any slipping.

    I'll give it a go this afternoon with the plane.

    Thanks.

    Bob

  11. #85
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    I'm basically a lazy bugger who'd rather do things the easy way ... and sometimes get away with it, this was one of them.

    I clamped the log in my woodvice at an angle, trying to get the final cut as close to horizontal as practical. The area being cut was past the side of the vice, not above it ie, I fed the log right through the vice and out the other side, then tilted it up. This meant that the area being cut isn't supported but it also meant that I had a really good grip on the log. By keeping the cut as close to the vice as practical (while still giving me room to work), there wasn't any flex in the timber.

    I start planing at the top corner. I cut an angle off one corner, then the other, letting the cut grow naturally down the side of the log. This leaves a raised bit in the middle of course, which I also attack when I feel like it. I do this until the side cuts are parallel to the pencil line (for the final cut) and about 3 mm above it, equal on both sides. Then I flatten the cut and work my way down.

    I had expected to have some problems with the end of the log being unsupported but found that the timber is stiff enough to support itself - I was able to get a nice feather edge without any drama at all.

    From picking up the piece of timber to putting it down with a lovely, flat, accurate scarf was under five minutes though I did have all the pieces marked up before starting. Hardest part was cleaning up all the shavings afterwards. I even managed to cut all the scarfs the same length

    Richard

  12. #86
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    Got one chine log glued on today. As you can see by the photo, I used every clamp I possess ... sort of (there are still some spring clamps left). The other side will have to wait until tomorrow. The log looks really thick but it's got a 12mm overhang so you're really only gluing a 19mm strip to the timber.

    Mik's plans talk about using drywall screws to glue the chine log in place. I chose not to, not because I didn't want screw holes in the timber, but because I couldn't come to terms with bending that thick log into place, holding it in place (a job best done from the log's side), then driving in a screw from the other (under) side. That's my reason anyway. How do others do their chine logs (as in the practicalities, not just whether you use screws or not)?

    Also continued mucking about with bulkheads and frames.

    Richard

  13. #87
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    I've been wondering the same things about attaching the chine logs to the hull panels. And having the same questions:

    • How do I hold the chine log in place while driving the screws home from the opposite side?
    • How do I bend and line up the chine log while using clamps?
    • How do I do the first two when the epoxy is slathered on?
    • Do I have enough clamps?

    At least I know the answer to the last one - no, I don't have enough clamps! More will be ordered!

    Maybe the trick is to dry fit the chine log where it needs to be with clamps, drive home the screws to hold it, remove the screws, remove the clamps, slather on the goop, and use the screws to hold the chine log in place. I think I'd add wear gloves and old clothes to that plan...

    Bob

  14. #88
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    If using screws, you're right about dry fitting first ... actually, you need to do that if using clamps too.

    As you can see, my side is sitting on four saw horses. I started at the far end in the photo. At the near end in the photo, you can see (on the right) and old table - I propped the near end of the side against that. Starting at the other end, I clamped the end of the log, then worked my way towards the close end. I'd push the side of the log into place with my thigh, then fit the next clamp. There is a fair bit of tension in that thick log, especially through the middle of the curve and this is why you want the end of the boat propped against something solid, just clamping it to a saw horse probably isn't good enough.

    Dry fit first though - you get to practice with the pressures involved ... and you get to hear that sickening crack before you slather everything with epoxy.

    For what it's worth, I used a two pump mix to glue that single log ie. two pumps with the West System pumps - mix it up, prime the ply, thicken the rest, coat the log, run out before the end, scrape excess off the log to stretch the whole lot the full length, panic, clamp in place.

    Richard

  15. #89
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    So, your 31 x 19 chine logs gave you grief while fitting them into place?

    What the heck am I going to do with the Goat's 45 x 19 chine logs? Of course, in my mind's eye I'm picturing some extreme sweeping curve the chine log is expected to follow. The reality is, I shouldn't panic until I get the hull panels cut out and I have a better idea of how much those chine logs really need to bend.

    I see you list panic as one of the steps for installing the chine logs. I think I'll have plenty of opportunities to panic before I get to the point of installing the chine logs.

    Bob

  16. #90
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    Right, I'm back from taking the lad to school - I had to leave the last post in a bit of a hurry

    On the question of clamps - Mik gives a spacing for the screws and if using clamps, you'll need to place your clamps at that same spacing, so that should allow you to work out how many you need. You need them that close together to make sure you don't have any gaps in the join between the chine log and the ply. Because of the tensions in that thick log, most of those clamps will have to be screw clamps, something that'll apply some real pressure - remember, epoxy is like grease and spring clamps or even those quick clamps (the ones where you squeeze the handle and they close up) just aren't up to the job. In some ways, screws are easier ... except you need to come in from the other side.

    I reckon the trick with screws, on this job, would be to have the side vertical and working with two people. If forced to work flat and with only one person, you'd have the log resting on a bench (or floor) with the ply on top, you'd have a guide line marked on the log at the 12mm overlap, you'd push the log into place and then drive the screw. The clamps were quick and easy though.

    Richard

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