Thread: Lug Rig Heaven

Brian,

Thank you for your feed back! I quickly browsed through the Lymington Scow pictures again and picture 86 of photo set 1 shows the set up you are referring to in some detail.

The past few days I have cracked my mind over a feasible downhaul / kicker system for the GIS that wouldn’t require too many alterations to the present structure. Of course I wouldn’t mind gluing a few reinforcements in place if it would enable a fully adjustable system from the aft, but somehow I feel that bigger changes are necessary (bulkheads and centre case gusset are very likely in the way and reinforcements would surely be needed in more places than one to avoid the fixings from being pulled out).

But perhaps Michael, being the designer, has some ideas to arrange a decent set up easily?

Next to this, I have to take into consideration that I will also be sailing the GIS two-up. Therefore I don’t really want the control lines to clutter the front end of the skiff too much (unless they are positioned low in the boat where they are a bit out of the way).

What might be a solution, but I am not sure whether it is too much of a compromise as it would only enable one to adjust the lines from the front end of the boat, is the following set up:

• 1 U-bolt on each side of the mast.
• Attached to the U-bolt on port side the downhaul using a 1:4 pulley system (I could of course make it 1:6 if needed)
• The same pulley set up on the starboard side for the kicker
• 2 micro cam cleats with wide angle fairleads bolted to the front deck just forward of the bulkhead where a good reinforcement is in place
• Both lines coming back from the blocks at the U-bolts to the cam cleats

This set up would also accommodate the normal GIS downhaul set up without any alterations.

I hope this makes sense (well I hope that you can make sense of my writing ).

I am looking forward to your comments!

Kind regards, Joost

Hi Joost. Picture 86 is I think Joe, who I race with most weekend, and a very good sailor she is too.

I have added some more pictures to the flicr link. These show close ups of the Lymington River set up which I took today. Whilest I was at Keyhaven 3 scows arrived from Yarmouth across the Solent. Two Bembridge Scows and a West Wight version. Different again. No kicker, simple 2 part downhaul, much more like the older scows used to be fitted out.

I think with two sailing most of the time, and not racing in a fleet of 20 Goats, leaving the controls at the front makes a lot of sense. Keeping the boat uncluttered and clean looking is a big help to enjoying your sailing.

There is a lot tension in the lug rig downhaul so there will be considerable upward pull on a u-bolt by the mast, and thus a lot of upward pull on the foredeck. This sounds like an unplanned stress that MIK would have to ok.

With an attachment on the boom close to the mast the angle will be ok as the boom moves from full out port to full out starboard. The kicker will be attached further away from the mast, so the distance swung will be much greater and I think the kicker really needs to be attached somewhere fairly close to the mast foot. Without ever seeing a Goat in real life it's difficult to help. I am sure MIK will advise best. If there is a gusset supporting the daggerboard case, could you drill a hole in it that the kicker control line passes through and then just put a cleat on the back of the gusset.

I think you are on the right lines, forgive the pun, and there is defineatly no need for any changes to the boat its self.

I think you need to stop worrying and get out sailing as soon as possible! Then things will sort temselves out. Ken who makes the Keyhaven Scows is opposed to any Scow having a kicker, they never used to have them. He believes that the rig is much more forgiving in gusts without a kicker. Brian

Hello Brian,

Thank you for the advice and the additional pictures on Flickr. MIK will probably be pleased as well seeing more pictures on lug rig set ups! These are helping me a lot figuring out possible solutions.

I am aware of the fact that it is difficult for you to make a good assessment without ever having seen a GIS in real life. I truly value your advice however. The following link shows you some upshot pictures of what the GIS interior looks like:

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/construction.html

I tend to agree with you that, since the boat won’t be raced and it will on occasion also be sailed with two, leaving the controls at the front might be best. And a change back to the standard GIS down haul (in case I won’t like the set up I am now considering) would be very easy.

Attaching the downhaul to a U-bolt by the mast is according to MIK’s plans for the Goat. The mast area is reinforced by a solid piece of wood (19 mm) glued in place underneath the plywood deck. I am not sure whether the kicker could be attached closer to the mast foot as the bulkhead might be in the kicker’s way.

I absolutely agree with you that I should stop worrying and get out sailing as soon as possible! I am however on a two week business trip to Finland at the moment, and that doesn’t help getting the boat finished! It also makes it difficult verifying solutions and stuff.

Best regards, Joost

Howdy Chaps!

Good discussion!

Just for people dropping in on this post ... none of these methods are necessary or are even being recommended. The standard setup is simple and works very nicely. This section is all about tweaking performance.

I think the mast partner block that is under the deck will be able to take any sort of load. So you can bolt through that.

Don't use U-bolts - use saddles - the ones with the 5mm/3/16" fastenings will be plenty strong enough. If you need to mount two blocks on one side then use two saddles. Make sure the end of the saddle will go through any block (pulley) that you purchase - within one manufacturing range it usually does.



If you use clam cleat use the metal ones as shown below.. the plastic ones wear out really quickly. These ones suit 3mm and 4mm lines which is all you will ever need if using spectra. - 4mm is probably preferable from a handling point of view and I would not go any larger.


It would be possible to run any control lines though a hole in the partner down to the mast step and use a block on the saddle to bring the line back along the floor of the boat to the mid seat. But you guys are right on the money about keeping it simple for cruising.

The saddle fastening could be glued straight into the mast step block. However the big problem with this setup is that the angle of the control line will have to change as it passes through the partner .. bad from friction and line and fitting wear views.

RAcing ... I would either bring it back along the floor or straight to the top of the centrecase ... the crew has to step over that anyhow - or slide along the mid seat.

Putting some real grunt in the system to control twist more might require the boom be made stiffer Make the blank the same tapered size but just radius the corners about 12mm. This actually makes it easier to fit reefing lines if desired.

Best wishes
Michael

Hello MIK,

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely use saddles than. They seem easier to put in place anyhow.

The cam cleats (at least Harken is calling them that way) I intend to use are these:



Harken also provides plastic base plates for the cam cleats that enables them to be set at a correct angle with regards to the control lines coming from the blocks at the saddle.

I have already made the boom according to specs, but will surely consider making a new beefed up one (just a days work anyhow) if required. One reinforcement I will make is a nice fat fillet where the partner meats the bulkheads.

Thanks & Regards, Joost

Hi Joost,

Reinforcing for fastenings - vertical pull
No need to beef up anything. The only real mod is if one of the fittings taking a vertical load from the downhaul or the halyard should go through the partner block.

Reinforcing for fastenings - horizontal pull
Anything taking a side load like a cleat only will need to be bolted through the ply with a small 6mm backing plate of ply (just a bit bigger than the whole area behind the fitting plus a bit more than width of the washers if it is heavy loads - normal washers under the nuts of course!!!

BTW, With the saddles above ... I always put washers under the legs on the top face of the ply too. Otherwise they will puncture the varnish and dent the timber.

Most bolts will be 5mm or 3/16in and I generally use a washer with a 19mm 3/4in outside diameter.

Gluing fasteners
Where there is a decent thickness of timber I often use the same bolts without any nuts and just glue them in place with epoxy - drill the hole so the threads have a little bit of bite, but not so small the bolt will jam halfway down the hole.. But I would generally like to be going into about an inch of timber. This is a suitable method.for some of the mast fittings that go into solid timber.

Metal thread


When you can only use a screw use a self tapping screw not a traditional woodscrew. These can be glued in too but the heads are not as strong as the above.


The nice thing about these small bolts (usually called metal threads in OZ and probably Uk - the heads are usually phillips pattern these days - best for the omnipresent cordless drill!) it they are much stronger than screws. The heads tend to come off screws sometimes but never off a metal thread.

So method is drill the holes as per above. Drop the fasteners in some acetone to clean them up and drop them onto a clean piece of cloth. They can sit there while you use a smoker's pipe cleaner to put epoxy up the hole and on the threaded shank of the fastener. Then screw the

I generally try to use fittings with no moving parts as much as possible, but one risk is getting epoxy on some moving parts ... so if using Joost's Cam Cleats above push the fastening through the cleat before epoxying it!!!!

Removal of bonded fasteners
Of course ... if they are glued in place they will need to be removed by heating with a soldering iron to soften the epoxy ... but if Biting Midges Goat is now 14 and has no water staining at all and has not been revarnished or painted in that time ... then the method is time efficient.

I would be hesitant to use the gluing method on a modern race dinghy unless it was fibreglass (it is a good idea there). Haviing to heat and remove about 250 fastenings with a soldering iron from a conventional wooden raceboat would drive me nuts!!!!

Best wishes
Michael

How so they make fasteners look so beautiful in these photos!!!!
MIK

Originally Posted by Joost

Hello MIK,

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely use saddles than. They seem easier to put in place anyhow.

The cam cleats (at least Harken is calling them that way) I intend to use are these:



Harken also provides plastic base plates for the cam cleats that enables them to be set at a correct angle with regards to the control lines coming from the blocks at the saddle.

I have already made the boom according to specs, but will surely consider making a new beefed up one (just a days work anyhow) if required. One reinforcement I will make is a nice fat fillet where the partner meats the bulkheads.

Thanks & Regards, Joost

Howdy Joost ... it is often necessary to raise this type on a block so that the line pull the rope DOWN into the jaws.

But you will find out when you first rig the boat at home if any wooden blocks are necessary. YOu can buy plastic ones too.

Hi fellow lug rig fans,

just a word about Quality Boat fittings. I, like many other sailors always lusted after Cool fittings but always felt I could not justify them. Well, when you end up working for one of the companies then it does give you the chance to try them.

I had just bought my older Lymington River Scow and was doing ok in the racing but not quite winning. The old fittings on this early boat meant I had to adjust the down haul and kicker on the beach, impossible to alter on the water. I fitted her out in all quality fittings and could not believe the difference. Now could adjust the sail at any time on the water and began winning races. So much pleasure to use.

It is nice using products are that are just so well made, using thin 2.5 / 3mm line and 16mm aero blocks means lots of pleasure for the least amount of pain.

Joost, the small cam cleats are available in carbo and metal teeth versions. As MIK says, always go for the metal teeth for long life, only a tiny bit heavier. I absolutely am 100% on board with the low cost / most fun approach, ( our Scows have gone too far towards high costs) its just if you do need a few blocks on the boat and you want to treat yourself and the boat please consider them.

Brian

Good points Brian,

Personally I do tend to go for cheap fittings but the big think I have learned from current racing trends is to use thin ropes ... it cuts the friction hugely! So I tend to 4mm control lines and run them through cheap non-ball bearing blocks that are designed for around 8mm ropes.

However when thing get complex and a lot of mechanical advantage is required I start considering choosing ball bearing blocks for the most heavily loaded blocks in the system.

Friction is always proportional to load ... so a nice compromise can always be made by having ball bearing blocks in highly loaded positions, but as you get closer to the output end (ie the one being pulled by a human), the loads are quite small ...maybe less than 50lbs (25kg) being common.

This goes for rope choice too.

A line loaded with human type loads is not going to stretch much unless it is long, so long ropes and highly loaded ropes are worthwhile candidates for spectra/dyneema to reduce the stretch.

The most critical places on my boats are usually the halyards and downhauls for the lug rigs. Also the corner lashings for the sails are good candidates for some very thin spectra (though most spectra ropes only have the inside core in spectra so you can remove the polyester outer to create a thinner rope for tying the corners of the sails to the spars.

I mentioned it earlier, but there are these pages for the Goat here that are useful to any luggers and lateeners. And dare I mention spritters!!!

making lug and sprit rigs

Michael

Just for the record, I have no commercial interests in said supplier of high quality fittings having left there over 4 years ago. My post was just trying to express how using high quality products can enhance the sailing experience, a sort of "delivered benefit is higher than cost" Brian

OK .... I will send you a message and we will work out a compromise so we are both happy. I should have sent you a message last night ... but it was getting late ... so sorry about that.

Michael

I just want to say, "Thank you!" to everyone for this great rigging information. It gives me a lot to think about and plan in to the build. I intend to race my GIS, so anything that will help is appreciated.

Bob

Hi Bob, racing GIS should be great fun. Full reports expected in due course!

One thing which I could do with some help is - have sailors out there found a range of really nice low cost dinghy blocks that they have found work, keep working and they are happy to recommend? Perhaps even something traditional like the tufnol blocks Classic Marine supply?

We are planning to build here in the UK soon, and want to build on a tight budget to show just what can be achieved. We will be using 3mm dyneema for all the halyard and control lines, just need to choose some nice low cost blocks. If none found I will have to resort to my beloved 16mm aero blocks but that will bust the budget.

Brian.