Thread: Lug Rig Heaven

Howdy ... WOW ... Brian .. thanks for that!!!

With the 1880s (that is a year) halyard arrangement for the lug rigs on all my boats you don't need to change anything at the top end at all except ease the halyard - the halyard block does not need to be moved at all.

I have decided that a rectangular boom (rather than round) makes it easy to set up a couple of cheap pulleys and cleats so it is possible to reef without moving forward in the boat either. Or pulling hte boom back to the cockpit.

The first picture shows a very interesting downhaul system ... which I will be forced to meditate apon!

The website the pics are on above is from John Claridge. Another top level racing hotshot who has gone classic!!! He dominated the UK Moth scene in Skiff type hulls when us lot were using superlight scows. When there was more than 12 knots we would win the worlds, if less then the skiffs would win.

Claridge's skiff moth developments also fed into the development of the most recent (1980's breakthrough) generation of the 18ft skiffs developing hulls with a lot less drag instead of concentrating on the amount of power available.

His skiff Moths looked quite radical at the time - and WONDERFUL construction methods in very thin materials ... but little did he (or we) know that the hull beam was going to end up around a foot wide ... and then later sprout hydrofoils!!!

Top level builder/designer/sailor.

Best wishes
MIK

John realised that he could not make a living producing radical International Moths. He cut up his moulds and started again, as you say, with classics. His Scow is very popular around here and he now has a larger Pram as well.

I called in to see him recently and mentioned he looked like he had lost some weight. He looked round and pointed to a new very radical foiler International Moth that he is now sailing! So he still loves his International Moths.

It was John I had talked to about thin ply composite construction. With John being a World Champion and his wife a ladies champion in the same class, it is no surprise that their son Robbie is good too. Look out for the young man in the pink Scow in the pictures. That's Robbie. He won the Nationals taking all three races.

Pleased to hear of the neat reefing arrangments. Will help a lot for sailing Solo.

The Scow downhaul is a 6:1. Most fix at the front of the boom and use that and the 4:1 kicker to control sail shape and leach tension. Interestingly on my own boat which is a local variation, the Keyhaven Scow, I fitted her out with carbon glass spars with no screws or holes of any kind. I fitted the downhaul using a double strap to a single 16mm block. Although she has sailed well I always seemed to have too much leach tension especially in light winds. So I cut through the strap, fixed the downhaul to the front of the boom ( which I do not really agree with) and went sailing. What a difference, boom still sets well as a balanced lug, ie forward by about a foot in front of the boom, but now leach tell tales fly well, gaff not over tensioned and head setting well, and even the helm is really balanced and I can race just on helm balance .

Net result in the 4 races since I changed the downhaul I have won 3 by some margin and on Sunday wen it blew up to force 6 I was leading again but went the wrong side of the committe boat going through the line! Ended up second. I cannot believe just one small change can make such a difference, leach tell tales flying, head fuller with sail matching my home made carbon gaff, much better downwind sail shape controlled by the kicker and I have my lovely neutral helm back.

Brian

Hello Brian,

It must be good racing so many classic boats together!

Any chance of posting a picture showing the exact set up of your downhaul and kicker?

Mik,

What is your view of this set up compared to the standard GIS one, and would it be worthwhile using it on the GIS?

I do see some advantages as it seems to enable one to fully control the shape of the sail as you will be able to better control both the boom and tension on the front leach.

It seems however to be a more complex system requiring more blocks and bits of rope etc. It also looks like that the angle from the front of the boom to the bottom of the mast protruding from the front deck is too big on the GIS, perhaps making such a system not very effective for tensioning the front leach.

Best regards, Joost

Hi Joost,

I agree completely with your analysis of the pros and cons. The great thing about these rigs it is is so easy to try things. If playing with downhauls, I would stick with Spectra (Dyneema) rope to minimise the stretch.

Best wishes
Michael

HI Joost and MIK

what's really great is having the opportunity to still race singlehanded as my body deteriorates and responses slow. Every sailing spot should have a similar small lug rigged dinghy for the older generation to keep sailing in. Look at those pictures and you will see every age from 80+ down to youngsters crewing. We have just had the Lymington Youth Week and all these boats were out again - all the older owners lend them out to the youngsters. Great to see them all out in such great boats to learn in. These kids are all the next generation of Ben's and Sara's and Ian Percy's - what a week for the GB sailing team - sorry to rub it in!

Back to boats and downhauls.

The Scows are designed for the helm to be balanced with a jib. All youth and about 50% of the Lymington fleet sail two up with jibs. At Keyhaven we all mainly sail singlehanded without jibs. Now the jib will catch on the front of the boom so the Scows fix the downhaul at the front and use a small loop of rope attached to the underside of the boom which goes round the mast and back over the end of the boom. This fastens the boom to the mast and creates a standing lug.

Now the odd thing is that this became popular with the singlehanders - much to my disagreement. Without a jib and with the mast foot in the same place the only option to achieve a balanced helm is the tip the rig as far forward as possible. So on my Lymington Scow I had the mast as far forward as the mouldings allowed and use the downhaul about 15" back. I really believe in the BALANCED lug. My helm was neutral and she was very fast ( for a Scow).

On my new Keyhaven Scow I fitted her out to my own ideas. Because the carbon glass tubes I used were pretty flimsy I use the double strap for the downhaul. This proved very wrong. In effect I was pulling the boom downwards along all its length. Creating too much tension right round the sail, up the luff, along the head and back down the leach. So that the main lesson learnt.

I believe that on a balanced rig the downhaul should be back from the front of the boom so that the luff is parrallel to the mast. Now I have repositioned my downhaul to the front of the boom the surprise is that the boom is still setting ahead of the mast just as I want it to, yet I have managed to seperate the downhaul tensioning the luff and the kicker adjusting the leach. I think my mast must be tipped forwards enough to swing the boom forward even though the downhaul is pulling it back.

The kicker is good for adjusting leach tension off the wind and acting as a preventer to stop a chinese gybe. Once on the wind the mainsheet takes over.

Lug rigs become intoxicating when used for racing!

I will try to take some pictures tomorrow and post them.

MIK, yes I do use 2.5mm dyneema, throughout the boat in fact. Even the shrouds are 2.5mm dyneema. Stood up to three years use so far - may change the shrouds this winter. Bought a 100m reel off eBay from Germany - reduces the cost to about 1/3 of shop costs.

Brian

Joost

I have added 21 pictures to a Flica site showing details. Struggled a bit with the order of them and grouping them. Brian

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2784884...7606911697259/


shot showing depth of sail


Mainsheet detail.

Brian,

Thanks for posting the pictures (and so many of them)! It is very good to see your boat's set up in such detail.

I will have to start and consider whether it will be worthwhile and feasible for the GIS as the interior lay out of the GIS is bit different from your lovely Keyhaven Scow. I do not really want to clutter the interior too much, but would love to have the ability to fully adjust and control the shape of the sail.

I will start thinking about it. Regardless of the down haul / kicker set up, the GIS will have, spectra / dyneema rope used trough out the boat (of course with exception of the main sheet). The main sheet system will use the same Harken Aero blocks (40 mm ones) that you have used (I know Mik, expensive, but I am of the opinion that my GIS deserves these beauties).

Best regards, Joost

Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

Joost

I have added 21 pictures to a Flica site showing details. Struggled a bit with the order of them and grouping them. Brian

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/sets/72157606911697259/

Thanks for the pics Brian.
The stirrup idea for climbing back in is brilliant.
Will fit it to any boat I have doubts about re-entering in future.
cheers
AJ

Hi Joost,

Any upgrades ... I am happy with!!! So don't worry that expensive bits are going to worry me!

Have you thought of homebuilding a carbon mast? Now that would add a nice lump of speed to her!

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/masts.htm

Hi Joost

can 100% recommend this supplier for dyneema. He is an eBay supplier from Germany. We bought reels of 4mm and 3mm. Came very quickly and postage costs really low. Costs much lower than shop retail.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DYNEEMA-ROPE-3...d=p3286.c0.m14

MIK

would love to have a go at carbon spars for SOLO- my Scow has shrouds and forestay, so freestanding masts would be new. I really like the lightness, buoyancy, toughness and their are sexy too.

John Claridge's origional gaffs and booms on his Scows were alloy windsurfing masts which were no good for windsurfing, so he bought 150 of them. Used 3m from top down for the gaff and 3m from the bottom up for the boom. I raced very successfully with these spars. So secondhand out of fashion carbon windsurfing masts could provide gaff, boom and mizzen mast. Just a main mast to make, perhaps a strengthened windsurfer mast as well? Making new spars exactly to spec would be good though if you would spec the layup? Brian.

Hello Mik and Brian,

I already built the (hollow square) mast a couple of months ago, so I will stick with that one for the moment. The weight difference made me choose this one over the solid round one as my girlfriend should also be able to put the mast in its place without too much trouble.

You probably know how these things go: only later on you realize the things that could possibly have been changed a little compared to the original plans. Especially since this is the first boat that I am building and I haven’t had much sailing experience in wooden boats (just plastic boats like the Europe and Laser). I must say that it has been a good learning experience so far.

I am going to give Brian's set up regarding down haul and kicker a go, and maybe, if I feel a carbon mast is justified after have sailed her, try making one later.

I will definitely have a look at that e-bay site.

Kind regards, Joost

Joost and Brian,

I am quite excited now with you and Brian with your racing background coming into the GIS and RAID41. Will be nice to have boats sailed up to their potential in the UK and Europe.

Brian, I probably would suggest going with the wooden yard and boom ... they do look nice! Getting weight out of the mast is nice too.

Can I tell you how grateful I am about the links about the scow rigging! It is a while since I have found any ideas that have more potential than the ones that are my standard tools ... you have got me excited about playing with the downhaul now.

One concern is that it might be fiddly to rig as it might require a small range of boom angle. This may not be a problem though, particularly that the GIS boom is in a more or less constant position whether reefed or not.

And we know the existing method works fine too.

MIK

Hi MIK

looking at the picture "mainsheet detail" in the mast area, the downhaul lines are left of the mast and the kicker lines are to the right. Note the mast has no partners at deck level. This means the downhaul lines slide along the flat face at the back of the foredeck coaming. So no restriction here on boom angles except of course for the shrouds.

Not fixing the mast at deck level however means so other interesting things happen. I find the carbon tubes are not very stiff untill they have taken on some bend. So on port tack in strong winds with a lot of 6:1 downhaul it is quite disconcerting to see the mast bending away from the boom which is pulled strongly from the port side of the mast. This lack of stiffness has to be a bad thing for a lug rig and had planned to stiffen the mast over this winter, however I have recently noticed an unexpected benefit.

With the boom on the port side of the mast, on port tack the sail does not set quite as well because of the sail shape hitting the mast. However in strong winds with the boom moving away from the mast - or rather the mast bending away from the boom, the sail shape is setting properly because the sail is not hitting the mast!

Since I changed the downhaul my little boat is going great. Just had our Bank Holiday regatta - 3 races on Saturday and one on Sunday - 4 wins! Very windy mind you - I am sure the ladies will be back to their winning ways when the wind drops.

I am glad you enjoyed the pictures MIK, it's a pleasure to share ideas on these great little lug rigs. For racing these controls help a lot, yet when I had a lovely Coot dinghy it had the simplest of lug rigs, just a simple downhaul and simple mainsheet, I was almost shocked at how well it sailed, I was even leading a pursuit race until I went the wrong way ( not unusual in my case).

Brian.

Brian, Mik,

I have been wondering about the set up that would work for the GIS with regards to the down haul and kicker.

The lay out of the GIS is definitely very different from the Keyhaven Scow.
The GIS has its mast set in a mast partner, whereas the Keyhaven Scow is dependant on shrouds to keep her mast upright. This allows the control lines to be set at the mast step level (low in the boat) rather than at a mast partner level. Next to this, the Scow seems to have some very sturdy thwarts that are also quite accessible from the lower side, which allows the control lines to be directed to the back.

Since my GIS hull has already been put together and is in the process of being painted (in other words, this discussion was started late!), I am not really looking forward to making any mayor changes.

What would be the smartest way to go forward with this idea; how to make sure that the dual control line set up will work and be easily adjustable from the standard sailing position without having to go forward to the mast (that's where I really like Brian's set up, everything is in reach from the "driver's seat").

I am looking forward to hearing your views and opinions. Meanwhile I will continue thinking of a solution that would work.

Regards, Joost