Thread: Mizzen sheeting

I think trying a long bridle. The mizzen sheet only needs to be a single purchase.

Might be necessary to play with lengths and positions in real sailing conditions. I think I have had only one or two foul ups with the mizzen sheet in all the years I have sailed Beth.

If worst REALLY comes to worst might look at a balance lug mizzen which will allow reefing and a multiple of sheet positions along the boom.

Thanks MIK, will try a long transom bridle. key seems to be to stop rope dangling down to catch the transom. If the sheet can keep the bridle away from the transom then it might work.

Having slept on it, here's what I am also thinking of trying today.

Run a bridle from the clew to the mizzen partner. On this bridle run a free running 16mm block which is fastened to the end of the sheet. The sheet runs to mid transom block on a short bridle, then forward.

The "clew to mizzen partner" bridle is long enough to allow the running sheet block to be close to the transom block on the wind and then off the wind only a short amount of sheet goes forward. trouble may be that it's like trying to control the sheet by tying it to the kicker, apart from this kicker is as long as possible so it might work.

Another possible way would be to fasten the bridle from the front of the mizzen boom to the clew, with enough length to just drop below the sail foot. The block could be fixed anywhere along the length. Will try that too.

Have some wind today so can at least load of the sail and see what works. Looks as if it will be best to release RAID41 as a lug mizzen anyway with the reefing issues - just another spar to make!

Brian

OK, I can't stand it any longer....I need someone to explain to me WHY:

put the jib at the back of the boat (where it gets in the way of the rudder, and the helmsman can't see it without looking backwards, another mast and a bumkin is needed) instead of on a bowsprit at the front? I'm sure there must be some very good reasons, but.......

Somebody?????? :

Originally Posted by woodeneye

OK, I can't stand it any longer....I need someone to explain to me WHY:

put the jib at the back of the boat (where it gets in the way of the rudder, and the helmsman can't see it without looking backwards, and a bumkin is needed) instead of on a bowsprit at the front? I'm sure there must be some very good reasons, but.......

Somebody?????? :

where is Clint

I agree - where is Clint when you need him.

Tried various ideas today. Long rear bridle suffered the same problems and in addition meant there was no sheeting angle when on the wind.

After various attempts which indicated the mizzen sheet had to come forward from the clew to avoid loose sheet hanging out the back of the boat, I tried the bridle from the mizzen tack to the mizzen clew with enough slack to hang just below the sail and a 16mm block tied at the mid point. Then tied a fairly tight transom bridle with a 16mm block tied at the mid-point. The mizzen sheet started at this block up to the mizzen boom bridle, back to the transom bridle block and forward to the tiller.



Ok, it does not look that good, but it worked well. I left the sail in the downwind position gybing on its own from one side to the other and at least the sheet is well forward of the hull transom corners and rudder box.

It also still sheeted the sail in to a close winded setting, so that's the best I can come up with for now.



Hope you can make out that if the transom bridle was any length then the sheet angle from clew becomes just a kicker with no angle. No idea if in practice this mizzen boom bridle would work, hope the more experienced can help MIK and Clint that is!

Brian

Brian, So the sheet in the aft position was fouling the rudder? It looks like you are on the right track.

Until you've done some serious sail-and-oar boating, it is hard to really get how useful a mizzen is. Lobsterman in Maine get it: they use a riding sail sheeted in tight to help their boat lie head-to-wind when hauling. Doing this when switching from oar to sail, or vice versa, or when reefing, or when restowing gear, or dealing with some issue when singlehanding is what is useful about a mizzen. You can heave to with a mizzen. You can sail the boat backwards with a mizzen -- great way to leave a dock, or a beach that is crowed, done it -- and you can leave the mizzen up at anchor to steady the boat. Mizzens are very very useful. This is why the raid boat discussion has a mizzen and why after the Caledonia Joost thinks it would be useful. With a crew mate, you have help to keep the boat head to wind, etc becaause they can be at oars while you reef, or stow a sail, etc.

Every boat is different and requires unique sheeting configurations. On the Goat, I'll have a boomkin that slides in through the transom and lashes down. Simple. The mizzen can be stepped or not. You get a more versatile boat, which is key if you are into the sail and oar style of boating.

I am still learning A LOT about mizzens and making them work with the different kinds of boats.

Clint

Cool Brian!

BTW ... with a sprit sail - as the twist is controlled by the snotter I always tie the block in the middle of the traveller. The mizzen has to be sheeted quite close a lot of the time.

MIK

As this is a small sail, & therefore not require much tension in the sheet, the snotter
would surely put much greater out-board force on the sprit than the sheet will apply in-
board ? So, would sheeting direct to the traveller from the end of the sprit make any real
difference to sail shape ?

In fact, the obtuse angle of the sprit bridle will cause the sheet to exert even greater
inwards force than direct sheeting. From hazy memory of Rescue Rope-work 102: at a
90 degree angle, the tension in each leg of a bridle will be the same as the force
applied to the bridle. At 120 degrees, the tension in each leg will be double the force
applied to the bridle. As you angle there is more like 135 - 150 degrees, you are
probably applying 3 or 4 times the inboard force to the sprit tip as you would with a
directly connected sheet.

If the desire is to wring out every last scrap of boat-speed possible, would it not be
simpler to just build hard travellers at the optimum locations aft & midships ? You
could laminate up something appealing in both locations. The midships one with
a quick-release pin & socket at each end to make bedding-down easier.

enquiring mind & all that...
cheers
AJ

Hi AJ,

not a performance issue at all in term of sheeting. Purely loose sheet when gybing from a starboard run to a port run still square. With the helsman busy with mainsheet and tiller when gybing, the mizzen needs to look after itself. With the mizzen fully sheeted out for a run, as the sail comes round in the gybe, the slack sheet catches the transom corners and rudder head.

Would much prefer a straight forward sheet to clew but all the things I tried still left a lot of loose sheet swinging across the transom. The bridle from tack to clew with the block at half way is purely an attempt to move the sheet forward of the transom. The smaller amount of loose sheet, because the blocks are moved forward, means the sheet gybes ok.

As you point out there are then other issues, but mizzen sheet catching rudder or dagger head is one I really wish to avoid.

Brian

OK Brian.
Makes more sense now. I'd missed that as the main driver.
Your solution will be hard to better without attaching to the mizzen further up, & interfering with sail set.
Or changing to a lug mizzen...
cheers
AJ

Hi Brian,

I have a simple sheet system for my mizzen. It is double ended. The sheet goes from a camcleat on the stb. gunwale, easily reached while sailing, back through a fairlead on the quarter and further back to end of the bumpkin, through a block and up through a block attached to the clew and the end of the sprit, back down through another block just forward of the other one on the bumpkin, and then forward on the port side as for the stb. side. You can handle each end of the sheet while sitting on the rail. This is the method Graham Byrnes uses on his ketch sharpie skiffs, Core Sound Sharpie and Bay River skiff. I first used Ronstan clamcleats but they didn't grip in light winds when there was minimal tension, so I changed to camcleats this year. You don't have a bumpkin and would put blocks on the quarters and the sheet would go straight up to the clew block.

I have thought for quite a while about how to reef a sprit boomed sail. Mine is 5.4 sq m so it's a bit much in a blow. It hangs out back a lot, so pulling out the sprit from the clew and moving it to a new clew at the reef grommet didn't appeal. The old ways didn't either, gathering the sail at the mast for instance. Graham Byrnes uses track on the masts when he wants a reefable spritboomed sail. Line around the mast gives you miles of line all over the place when the sail is down. Loops or hoops means you have to take off the sprit from the mast. You could do this with a simple clip tied onto the mast, to the block. I cut off the sleeve on my sail and glued on a track and sewed on slides. Then made a jiffy reefing system. The clew line starts by being tied onto the boom at a point which is the distance out from the mast that the new clew will be when reefed. I put a grommet here and the line goes through it, up and through the reefing grommet and down and back through a block at the end of the boom. Then it goes forward to a clamcleat on the boom near the mast (reachable). The luff reefing line starts on the mast above a grommet level with the start of the clew reef, goes down through it, up through the reef grommet and down past the original attachment on the mast to a cleat on the mast. So the line pulls the bottom of the luff up and the top of the luff down. The two luff grommets are close to each other when reefed. I'm not a mizzen expert, and have only just tried this in trailer-sailer mode. I'll be launching next week to give it a real try. I hope the pictures explain it better than my description.

Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

I am new to mizzens and mizzen sheeting. RAID41 has a sprit boom which extends well past the stern of the boat.

My plan was to have a bridle at the transom with the mizzen sheet block tied at the centre. The mizzen sheet was to come from the mizzen clew, through this bridled block, forward to a small 16mm block at the rudder pivot and on to a cleat at the end of the tiller. So mizzen sheet always to hand.

On the wind, tacking above plan seems to work ok. What I have realised is the if I am on a run with the mizzen sheet fully out, and gybe to a run on the other tack, there is an amount of loose mizzen sheet swinging across the transom and will very easily catch the transom corner, or worse still the rudder cheeks.

Cannot take the mizzen sheet further forward on the sprit as I might do if she was lug mizzen because the sail is lower than the boom on starboard tack, port tack would be ok!

Can the Beth sailors or mizzen experts help please?

Thanks, Brian

Glug, how does the helm work? The mizzen seems not to be offset. Is it a push-pull tiller?

Good shots though they come up too small for me to really have any thoughts about.

Best,
Clint

The tiller splits into two curved parts that go around the mizzen mast and join forward of it.
http://www.campionboats.co.uk/html/m...le_photos.html
http://www.campionboats.co.uk/html/photos.html

The mast is not offset. See photos. As the old canoe yawls did.

Originally Posted by Compass Project

Glug, how does the helm work? The mizzen seems not to be offset. Is it a push-pull tiller?

Good shots though they come up too small for me to really have any thoughts about.

Best,
Clint

Originally Posted by woodeneye

OK, I can't stand it any longer....I need someone to explain to me WHY:

put the jib at the back of the boat (where it gets in the way of the rudder, and the helmsman can't see it without looking backwards, another mast and a bumkin is needed) instead of on a bowsprit at the front? I'm sure there must be some very good reasons, but.......

Somebody?????? :

I could always stuff the mizzen in the bows!!!!



http://www.parker-marine.com/eastpage.htm

Brian