Thread: MSD Rowboat in Brisbane

When you're thinking about boats of this class, you start thinking about Redmond's Whisp, especially as it was reputed to have good crosswind handling. Unfortunately, most sites refering to it on the web have died of old age and those remaining don't show photos of the skeg so I'm none the wiser on the route he took. The best I could get is a very fuzzy photo from the Whisp homepage showing a Whisp on the roof of a Vee Dub - this hints that his skeg is small and sweeps upwards as Tom's now would, but it's only a hint.

I don't suppose anyone has the plans and could shed some light on this.

The other issue with experimenting this way is getting regular windy conditions on a patch of water that doesn't throw other complications into the mix. Anyone got a lake in their wind tunnel?

Richard

Here is David Payne's Tamar Skiff



Looks very similar to what Mik's drawn with the RowingSkiff though it's bloody hard to tell and you could lose an inch off the skeg and not see it in this sized profile.

I haven't seen anything with the bow skeg yet, though that might just indicate that Mik's onto something who's time has come or that my searching skills are rubbish.

The interesting thing to note is how the bow sits in the water - David Payne shows it well in the water.

I haven't seen something from Mik giving a water line though this image has a suggestion of one (maybe it is the waterline)


If that dashed line in the waterline, it suggests Mik's drawn the bow sitting at the water line. Mik's profile certainly sits more bow up that David's (assuming both are drawn sitting on an even keel).

This ties in with the earlier suggestion in this thread for Tom to move his weight forward.

I'm also reminded of a story my father tells. One of his first jobs was working in the packing shed at Renmark and part of his duties was to sort through the stacks of floorboards as they came in, selecting planks for the local boat builder. A typical flattie river boat was about 6 planks wide and three planks deep, often double ended (because when swimming cattle across the river, the cattle could climb over a transom but not over a pointed stern - don't see that one in the marine histories do you ). Anyways, the relevant part of the story in this context is that they 'used to float about half a plank deep' ie, the bow was well into the water.

So, bearing in mind that this is an uneducated amateur making blind guesses at the arcane art of boat design, does the answer for this skiff lie in getting the bow deeper into the water? (this is where Mik chimes in and points out that the dashed line above is nothing and that the skiff does indeed sit nose down ).

Richard

Mik, seeing this discussion is fairly important and it's now spread across two threads, how about creating a new thread and merging the relevant bits from this thread and mine into the one.

It is hard to know how different boats REALLY go without one person testing within a short time frame with enough time in different conditions to find out.

What causes a minor issue for one person can seem like a real problem for another.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

It is hard to know how different boats REALLY go without one person testing within a short time frame with enough time in different conditions to find out.

What causes a minor issue for one person can seem like a real problem for another.

MIK

Yup, and it doesn't help that I'm learning this stuff as I go and probably leaping to all sorts of confusions that professionals dealt with centuries ago (literally).

However, a wee bit further thought suggests that the forward rowing position might have more value than merely compensating for a passenger. This isn't a new suggestion to this discussion, just a different way of looking at it. The thought is that as the wind gets up and the bow starts to swing, move to the forward postiion, digging the nose into the water (as suggested earlier) however regarding this movement as being as normal as reefing a sail.

Richard

Originally Posted by tomtre

My skeg is now 85mm at the stern cut back to meet the original about 1.8m from the stern.
I reckon I reduced the skeg by about 40%.

I just wandered out into the shed to lay a ruler on mine. Mine's 150mm and basically follows the line of transom at the rear end. Cutting down to 85mm would appear to be a big jump

Originally Posted by Boatmik

With the skeg, do some more testing and then we can pool info and I will change the plan. Sounds good so far.

I did draw in an extra big skeg so it could be taken down (honest!!!)

The canoeists are thinking the bow fin will protect the hull well - but experience will always outdo the theorising.

MIK

I somehow missed this earlier.
Interesting that the canoeists think it will add protection. Maybe the lighter craft are easier on the bow. Now that Tom's mentioned it, I do wonder how a 45mm bow skeg will handle normal rough handling. Any thoughts?

Richard

Hi everyone
My concern with a bow skeg is that sooner or later the boat will be dragged sideways across the beach or grass and it may be damaged. The problem with judging the trim is that I cant do it when sitting in the boat. If I hear slapping sounds from the bow si ti the bottom or sides. Moving my weight forward will raise the stern, reducing the skeg effect if the transom lifts
I have a couple of pictures from the launch day showing the trim
Here rowing, with me sitting in the forward rowing position, oarlocks 100mm behind back of seat
Attachment 126420
Another one, I tihnk the stern is clear of the water
Attachment 126421
And with me relaxed just sitting there
Attachment 126422
The stern is definitely clear.
It would take a lot of extra weight to push the boat down to make the bow bite more.
MIK is right about one person testing things So I will try to get up Mooloolaba way when he is there. School holidays will be over and there are plenty of campgrounds nearby. I would like for Mik to be able to have a play with the boat. There are plenty of waterways nearby fresh and salt
By for now,
Tom

In the second photo, there's a small bow wave so the bow was biting then.

The stern clear is a good thing I would think, regardless of the wind, though with a flat bottomed boat, maybe not.

I hope those weren't the conditions that generated the 'griping' behaviour, they look pretty mild to me.

A sandbag in the bow on a windy day would be an interesting experiment, or a big bucket of water.

Speaking of personal situations, on most occasions, I'll have my dog with me and he likes sitting up front ... but then again, he's no labrador (he's a German Spitz, small medium sized). He is enough to upset the trim Redback in that I can tell when he changes sides because the boat suddenly starts veering in the opposite direction.

So Tom, when are you bring your boat down to Adelaide so we can compare the two side by side

Richard

Richard those photos were taken the day after the windy launch, it was abeautiful still morning and probably only in the upper twenties at htat time of the day.
I dont know when the boats will be side by side, I have been wanting to get to the Goolwa festival sometime. One of these days.
Bye for now,
Tom

Am in Adelaide for a wedding ... heading back to Sydney tonight. Plan is to do a whirlwind catch up with the builders (and friends! not mutually exclusive) in Sydney and then head up to Mooloolaba late Jan. Might even go back to Sydney for a while after that.

It is possible we might have a boating day in Mooloolaba and/or I can cajole the Biting Midge to come down your way tomtre.

MIK

Hi MIK
Mooloolaba area sounds good to me. I dont really know my way around up there and Navwoman leads me astray as often as to the straight and narrow but if you suggest a ramp/picnic area I will find it. Saturdays probably best, PM me as you get closer
Tom

You guys have funny names for places. How about towns and areas with easy to remember names like: Denmark, Poland, Norway, Paris, China, we have many towns and areas with these names. I used to work in Poland. That always makes people wonder.

Enjoy your messabout. I am sure envious.

Clint

I still like King of Prussia (PA) best

I Caught up with Tomtre yesterday - he picked me up and we dodged rain squalls while driving down to the coast.

Had a nice discussion along the way. And the boat just looked great on the water. I am still nursing my bung foot so I didn't go for a row. Got a lot of feedback from Tom and also found we knew each other in a past life - when we were in our teens we used to go to a sailing camp at Lake Munmorah on the NSW central coast.

The most important practical upshot Is that we measured up the revised skeg size - remember I drew it oversized - as it is easier to cut it down than glue more on. Tom has trimmed it so the boat behaves nicely cross breeze rather than the nose blowing away from the wind.

I will post those dimensions shortly.

Best wishes
Michael

It was great to meet MIK yesterday
I cant remember what he did to me way back whenever to make me remember his name, probably laughed when the boom hit my head. It is a bloody small world. Mik took a heap of photos and will no doubt post them later. We got a look at the trim of the boat and it was good to have a chat about things. I am happy about how the boat handles in a crosswind now, it just blows sideways but holds a course. I didnt get the new skegline straigt, but it works and no one can see so it doesnt matter.
Well MIK you didnt pick the best day weather wise but it was good to see you. Look forward to seeing a few of the pictures
Tom