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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmk89 View Post
    There is a how to on attaching as thumbnails in this post. You should be able to upload from your account as well
    Hi Jeremy,

    I just noticed the info in your post - will check it out.

    Cheers and thanks,
    Alex.

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  3. #32
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    Alex... you will have to point out the mistake 'cos I can see what you changed but I don't know why.

    I'm following closely 'cos I am collecting the bits to build a couple of my own Ducks soon.
    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers View Post
    Alex... you will have to point out the mistake 'cos I can see what you changed but I don't know why. :?

    I'm following closely 'cos I am collecting the bits to build a couple of my own Ducks soon.
    Hi Cliff - It's hard to see with the way I took the photos, although that wasn't deliberate. I wasn't trying to hide it: I hadn't noticed it!

    The mistake was that I had the left-most bracket in the array - last one to be fixed down on the board - right up against the line. Like the others, but on the opposite side of the line. This position was constrained by the lack of door on the "other" side.

    Because the bracket assembly was right up against the line, the first bit of chinelog timber was pushed up on the "wrong" side of the line - i.e., 12 mm too high, and wouldn't have followed the proper curve along to the bottom of the bow transom. If the second laminate had been added, the chinelog would in fact have come the equivalent of half way up the mast step runner - but may in fact have snapped before it got that far!

    Although that bracket was the last one on - and here's the "gotcha" - I actually started putting the timber on the jig at that (closed) end, so never noticed what would have been an extremely stiff - and in fact extremely difficult - fit if I'd left that station fitting (with the bracket in place) till last. I found the error (I think) when I went to put the second (outer/lower) piece on. Then it (the mistake) lept up and nearly bit my head off!

    Fortunately I found out before I got glue anywhere near the thing, as I would have been quite cross! Hence Michael's wise suggestions to do dry runs, made for people like me...

    In the corrected version, I snugged the bracket up against the double layer of timber to get the right width, then screwed it down. This time the upper edge of that part of the upper chinelog laminate was on the same side of line as the rest of it.

    It has just occurred to me, however, that I haven't allowed the reasonable fraction of a mm for the fortified glue (but can tweak this by removing or slimming the shim on that station if necessary). Again, this is only a problem for this particular station because of the constrained placement of the bracket. One alternative would be to screw a small block of wood firmly onto the door on the "correct" side, as long as it were capable of tking a clamp. (I think I'll stick with it as it is!)

    That door, incidentally, already had a useful covering of t&g radiata on the other side - all the screws pass through the door and are anchored in 9 - 10 mm of pine :).

    BTW, I hope you haven't been having the "fun" that I had finding conveniently available plywood! Good luck :).

    Back to thinking about paint (and I also think I've worked out how to tape the logs before glueing, without getting too complicated).

    Cheers,
    Alex.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Take it easy Alex, a healthy boatbuilder is a happy boatbuilder! Lots of rest and fresh veggies, OK?!

    Michael
    I did actually have some extra fresh muscatels with dinner this evening. As for the rest - well, today was quite horrible: lots of dragging around on foot around Artarmon/St Leonards/M2 in the heat and humidity whislt not feeling too well, chasing wild geese - not wood ducks! - for work. Ironically, I visited marine supply shops, but not for my own devious purposes, I am unhappy to say! I had intended to go back to Whitworth's tomorrow, but quite a serious argument with The Accountant this evening has put paid to that little expedition, I fear.

    If I do happen to go out (window) shopping, I will make enquires about foam rollers, and I'll also check in my box o' stuff from Drive Marine before I go, to see what sort of foam rollers I got from them (picture to follow tomorow (Thursday)). All I know at the moment is that they're 250 mm long (and are to be cut up into 75 mm-odd lengths to match the handle I got, for doing the epoxy with).

    Speaking of epoxy, it occurred to me today that I had no (well, few) qualms about rolling epoxy, so I shouldn't have qualms about rolling paint. But paint is just so visible - it's the last thing that goes on, and the first thing that the admiring - or not! - public will notice ;).

    Better finish this before it becomes "tomorrow" and I turn into a pumpkin, or summink!

    Alex.

  6. #35
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    Right, ta, got it.

    Plyco in Melbourne have something called 'Compass Ply' that is made in Melbourne.

    I am waiting to see if I can get some with another bloke's order.
    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

  7. #36
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    Cliff -

    My apologies for being so verbose - "short, concise, succint and really, really brief" is not my middle name... As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words.

    MIK -

    Back to the paint - I made a mistake (again) and got Interprotect 2-part 'poxy primer instead of the Prekote. Should have made a note (as I did for the other paints) but didn't <sigh>. So that's another trip to the shop to take the wrong one back - unless you think Interprotect will do on its own under the Brightside (actually, the guy at the shop didn't know when I asked him - they seemed more knowledgable yesterday, must be a variation in staff).

    Got another handful of clamps while at Bunnies on the way home, then forgot to look at the paint rollers! Not having a good time at all at the moment :(. At the least the chinelogs, still lightly clamped to the jig, will have acquired the right bend by themselves by the time I get around to glueing them.

  8. #37
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    I spent about 15 minutes this evening (the only actual work done on the boat today) testing my ideas on applying tape to the first layer of chinelogsbefore applying the the glue. I was going to add some photos of this, but decided that they didn't add any clarifying or new info, so have left them out.

    I stuck pieces of tape over the bottom two chinelogs pieces, initially at the bracket postions as they were likely the most fiddly area to work with once the glue went on. The tape was then cut so that the chinelog laminates could be separated for applying the glue.

    On watching the behaviour of the tape when the sticks were released from tension slightly I realised that this wouldn't work. As soon as the sticks straightened the tape buckled. What I've decided to do is get the upper surface of the chinelog as clean as possible once the glue has been added and it's been clamped up, then add the tape in stages (as in the instructions ;). Adding the second set of chinelogs without fatally disturbing the bottom set is going to be the real challenge, and was actually the motivation behind the above trial.

    The latest thought is to carefully lift the log between the clamps and slide tape underneath, sticky side up, then pressing the log back down onto the tape and wrapping it around the log to fasten it - and repeat n times, where n is the two or three times the number of spaces between clamps. That should allow me a slight breathing space when letting the tension off individual clamps to run final bits of tape along the top to seal of the parts that I've had to miss in the previous step. This approach should minimise the chance of disrupting the glue joint. Interesting to see if it works!

    In fact the cleanest and simplest way to do the logs may be doing them both separately. I stiill want to try doing them both at once if I can, having been piqued by the challenge...

    On the paint yet again: after reading the International catalogue and tips booklet, I've decided to swap the Interprotect for a tin of Prekote since I'm not using a 2-part PU topcoat (which is basically what Interprotect is partly for, if I've understood things correctly). And I may have to add coats of another Perfektion primer between the Intercoat and PU paints (or is it just the 2-pot PUs?), potentially generating further and unecessary cost and extra work! Unless I get advice to the contrary, of course. Prekote is a good 40 % cheaper than Interprotect, too!

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexN View Post
    Cliff -

    My apologies for being so verbose - ....
    Not a problem, not a problem at all.

    Here is a bloke with a total of 86 posts apologising for being verbose to a clown with more that 9556 posts (I say more than 'cos there are HEAPS in the drivel section that don't count.)
    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

  10. #39
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    Well, verbose in the sense that I seemed to be writing far too much to describe something that was really simple!

    I took the Interprotect back this afternoon after work, and swapped it for a tin of Prekote. I noted that the Prekote tin says to use "Yacht Primer" 'twixt epoxy and it, but my inclination at this juncture is to ignore that. Perhaps there should be an addition to the Oz rule subset about only using house paint ;).

    I also noticed some Marlow "Excel Pro" 3 mm polyester chord (PE core, PE coat) on special on the counter, and thinking that it looked useful for lacing the sail onto the lug ring, I snapped up a $14/17 m reel in red with blue and pink flecking. I can always use it for something else if I find that it's too stretchy. The online product sheet claims that it is "low stretch", so we'll see. (The Marlow site also crashed my current browser - Opera 9 - and took out the original version of this post, which I have now more or less reconstructed. Mind you, I think I might have had too many - 44 - tabs open...)

    Had another thought re the chinelog production line - perhaps build the second set in front of the first instead of above it, although that may still be as logistically difficult as the other method. Got some stronger Nachi tape at lunchtime, which will hopefully give less and hold the first set in shape more when unclamped (slightly). I'm going to try glueing them up this weekend, if my snout behaves itself (I'm now on antibiotics for it <sigh>), and will post photos (possibly with epoxy-smeared lens ;) of the fun and games, whether or not I'm successful They might even provide some amusement for the hard-hearted out there ;).

  11. #40
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    One other thing of note - the Dremel router base attachment that I'd ordered on Wednesday from www.mytoolstore.com.au was waiting for me at work today (thanks, Rob - quick as always!). Now I'm going to be able to chamfer the bulkhead frames neatly and thus reduce the number of pronounced edges that will be vulnerable to being kicked: I've got quite a stack of Paulownia, remember ;). The big Elu is too big for me to use hand held for this task, with the rather light Paulownia. The Elu usually gets put in the Triton and used as a spindle moulder: I didn't like the idea of effectively operating it blind and captive on the upside-down bulkheads, bearing guide bits or not. That's also me being somewhat lazy and not wanting to set up multiple stops on the table.

    The "routerised" Dremel will be perfect, being light and maneuverable, and as the router base is clear, I will be better able to see what I'm doing to the timber - as I do it! I would have preferred the Bosch "palm" router, but as I had the Dremel and the router bits already, this worked out almost five times cheaper. And I'll be able to use it on the coamings, gunwales and port cutouts (latter using a circle guide).

    Now I'm off to look at the brand spanking new Raid41 site (http://sailraid41.com).

  12. #41
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    Hi Alex, hope you like the Raid41 site. All comments and ideas welcome. Can you tell us more about your Dremel router please. I have a Dremel so would be good to see how to use it for cleat rounding and such.

    Brian

  13. #42
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    Yes indeed to both :). I've been followiing Trim's progress with great interest, and although early days, your site is looking great :).

    I'll do a quick setup of the router in the morning - you can see what it looks like on the Dremel UK web site here. There is a very clear photo with the Dremel Tool installed. I'll try and show what it looks like in action (unless I've sneezed my poor snout right off by then, in which case I will be up at the hospital having it sewn back on ;).

    The plunge router attachment comes an edge guide and a circle-cutting guide (latter uses a bullet-head nail as a pivot), both in a relatively high-density plastic which should stand up to the rigours of boat-building reasonably well. It also has a depth stop and allows for setting of multiple heights (although I was sneezing too much to take in most of what I was reading at that point! Tomorrow is another day, as they say in the classics...)

    OK, here are three photos of the thing sitting on what's left of my desk...

    1. From the bottom - clear base evident. Reel of Marlow 3mm chord in background:






    2. Unit from the front, minus the Dremel:





    3. Unit from the back, ditto:





    4. Set of Dremel router bits, 3 mm shank. Range now up to 9 bits, I think - 7 came in this set. Pencil gives scale:





    Sorry about the fuzziness in two of these shots - I think I was too close to the subject. I've stuck a quick photo of the bits in tonight. That's about a 6 mm/0.25 " radius on the curved bits, hope that's sufficient for your cleats. If you wanted a larger radius, you'd have to go up to a trimming router (e.g., the Bosch mentioned above) with 0.25 "/6 mm shanks.

    Not quite sure how long the clear base will remain that way: it may or may not scratch up. Depends upon what it's running across, of course.

    More stuff tomorrow as I'm playing with it. Will include the guides then.
    Last edited by AlexN; 27th Feb 2009 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Added photos

  14. #43
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    Thanks Alex, that's great. They even do a miniature circular saw!




  15. #44
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    Yes :). I've got if squirrelled away in one of my tool drawers. In fact, I went silly a few years ago when we had a fully-stocked Dremel agent next door to my most-used railway station here in Sydney (when the parent company went bust, Rob - see above - had to shift his operations fully online, which isn't quite as convenient ;). I got qite a lot of add-ons at the time, including the right-angle attachment, flex-drive, drill-press ("workstation"), router table and bits: none of which I've actually, I'm really ashamed to say. I got them for the model aircraft, which I hadn't had the working space or time for because of a major and protracted concreting job in the workshop. Once I'd finished that, I started up on some engineering stuff and bypassed the aircraft completely. Then got side-tracked slightly by a holiday by the sea and the decision to build a boat and start sailing again, and...

    There just isn't enough time, especially with my current run of bad health :(.

    I'm actually fairly sure that this latest Dremel goody is actually going to get used for real work. The only other Dremel thing that gets a frequent workout at the moment is their "D-Vise" [sic.], see pic below. In fact, that was so useful that I bought one for work.

    1. Dremel's "D-Vise", mounted on a formply-offcut bench hook (can be clamped to bench/table/desk if needed). Having a lot of formply from the concreting that I could slvage, it is continuing to come in useful. I hacked up a monitor stand/keyboard "tray" from some of this, amongst a large number of other things (mostly jigs, and tool-holders like the one below).





    And of course, now that I need to find the collet chuck and nut for the Dremel, I can't! Aaaaargh!

  16. #45
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    OK, found the chuck and nut where they were supposed to be - in the Dremel "consumables stand": yet another acquired gadget that I don't seem to have room for at the moment...

    Down to business - Pinus radiata is a bit beyond this setup unless one takes one's time and nibbles away with small increases increases in depth of cut. Paulownia tomentosa, on the other hand, gets ripped through in a twinkling! The photos tell the story...

    1. First attempt at cutting with the grain. Direction of cut in all photos is from left to right. Burned edges as a result of cutting too deep and forcing the router. It doesn't like to be made to chew into P. radiata - it prefers to nibble away at it...





    2. The base of the router after the above cut. The router is locked in the down position - one less thing to worry about while learning to learn to use this wee beastie...






    3. Router ready to run along the cross grain - second attempt. Note that the router is NOT running at this point! I put the camera down first...



    I chickened out on showing you the first cross-grain attempt - against most appearances I actually do have some dignity...



    4. The result...note the tearouts along the cut and at the end. This would probably have been alleviated by making lighter cuts. Note the burn marks and the shallower depth of cut just after half way, where the wood is a lot denser (i.e., the longer dark growth rings)...





    5. OK, this next is at the end of one of the chinelogs laminates, used as a test piece for the radius bit on Paulownia (this end is nowhere near the glue-up region). This was done in one pass: Paulownia is much softer than P. radiata...





    6. Aerial view of the same cut: the cutter fairly zipped through it!





    7. The same section of timber run across by the mitre bit. Given that the edge had alreay bee radiused, the cut was effectively a shallower one than going at it from scratch. I did actually do this one with several passes at increasing cutter depths. The photo's a bit blurry, but it give the general idea better (slightly more contrasty) than the one in better focus. Lovely shot of the end of the door, though, eh?. Mmm, nice...





    8. Last one in this sequence: aerial view of same.





    So there is the first run with my new lightweight trim router. I'm going to need to do some more practice not only on cutting but on adjusting the thing, which I find a bit awkward to do at the moment. The radius is probably just about right for the Duck's gunwale, coaming and carlins, but maybe just a bit large for its side panel bottom curves, given that the ply is 3.6 mm thick.

    Not sure if I'm game enough to tackle the chinelogs today - still very sniffly and sneezy.
    Last edited by AlexN; 28th Feb 2009 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Typo

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