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  1. #16
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    Epoxy dust is a fine filler material, I save mine, though it's mixed with outer stuff too. It's a pain in the butt to sand, so use a percentage of talc or balloons to ease sanding effort with this stuff.

    I don't cut the seams with a knife after taping. I very carefully run the tape down each edge. This is one reason I use "fine line" tape, so you can bend and curve it. The crape paper tape (the blue stuff) just doesn't curve well and it's rough texture, insures a putty knife will dance around, as you pack goo into the seams, making a lumpy seam.

    Multiple coats of epoxy and varnish will help smooth these irregularities out to a degree. 99% of the people looking at your boat will just be impressed, so don't sweat it too much. You're doing fine, keep it up.

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  3. #17
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    Nov 2011
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    Riverina NSW
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    That's good to know about the epoxy dust as filler. It worked well for me but I put it in a couple of places where a darker colour would've suited but never mind. I am caring less and less about a perfect finish particularly as I'm aiming to be in the water by next weekend and like you say, the overall look of the finished product impresses, but I am struggling with the deck to get to a satisfactory finish.

    Over the past couple of days, everything got sanded and the canoe taken outside for a washdown, air dried then moved to our garage which I thought would provide a better environment for the remaining varnish and painting. The decks and interior got two coats of varnish yesterday but I've got a problem. The decks started to erupt in the seams after my first coat around lunch time then settled as that coat cured and disappeared. After my second coat there was more eruption, this time on the boards and has pretty much remained overnight. It will need a decent sand now before I move forward but what caused this?

    My tack rag is cotton that was soaked then wrung out in a, I'd guess >90% turps/varnish mix and the decks were rubbed down with this. It seemed to dry before I applied the first varnish of the day. For the second coat later I didn't tack rag or sand and the previous coat may have been a little underdone in places but it was a warm day and I honestly couldn't tell how long it was in between coats. Maybe 10hrs. Lastly, my brushes I used weren't completely dry. They had been soaking in clean turps after being thoroughly cleaned in turps, then I'd pat them dry, shake them so no more turps would fling off then dry them off further with a few strokes of the brush on naked drywall, then use. Obviously they're still a bit damp with turps but every other previous coat of varnish on the deck used the same two brushes but they were truly dry as in left out in the sun to dry hours prior to use. And every coat was applied with a new foam roller. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?


  4. #18
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    It's tough, as you're learning. Clear finishes are the most difficult to do and care for.

    Generally, once a surface is sealed, you don't need to cut the varnish, unless spraying and you need to cut enough to remove stipple. If it's hot out, I might add a little flow promoter (Penetrol, for example), but I'll rarely cut, once the surface is sealed.

    I'll bet you're just rushing things a bit to quickly. Varnish has to be dry and sanded, unfortunately, there's no quick way around this, unless you switch to polyurethane. On clear finishes, I tend to wet sand more then dry, which helps clean the surface.

    I also spin my brushes dry if they've been soaking. For that matter, I don't use bristle brushes, but prefer foam. I find foam leaves fewer marks and they're more uniform. They take some getting use to, but once you do, you will not go back. I buy them by the case and treat them as disposable, so I don't have contamination issues as a result.

    Lastly, a lot of folks, including me use solvent soaked rags as tack cloths, but on clear finishes, I use real tack cloths. On everything else, I can get away with it usually, but on clear finishes, everyhting needs to be sanitary and reliable.

  5. #19
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    Nov 2011
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    Riverina NSW
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAR View Post
    I'll bet you're just rushing things a bit to quickly.
    I think you're spot on PAR and thanks for the other info. I've got some decent brushes but will try foam on the varnish. I did some more reading and research after I posted yesterday and I simply haven't allowed things to cure properly. The last two coats of varnish not only went on too quick but too thick as well. It's been cool weather here and I simply haven't waited long enough for the varnish to cure. I left it alone for a couple of days whilst I went back to work and then tonight sanded by hand with 240 then 320 grit just to knock the varnish down to a flat state and I came across a few areas that were sticky. I had to flip the canoe and will just leave it for a couple of days.

    In the meantime I'll continue painting the hull which I started a couple of days ago. This evening I wet sanded then put a second coat on. It's 1 part epoxy enamel, WhiteKnight Rust Guard to be specific but it's not smooth sailing with the finish unfortunately. The hull was faired and wet sanded a few days ago then the enamel rolled and tipped. Same for the second coat. But unbelievably I'm not only fighting lint but dimples in the paint. I'm not sure if adding thinners will help it flow or now I'm leaning towards applying by spray in which case the paint will be thinned by 10%. I've no idea why the paint dimples randomly. I'm positive the epoxy substrate plus first coat were both clean before paint was applied. Both times the hull had been wet sanded, dried and turps soaked rag plus clean rag used to wipe surface down.

    First pic shows the colour scheme were going for however this shot was taken after both hull and decks were sanded. Eventually I want to add a white to the ends and pin stripes to the sides but it all depends on how the blue coat goes. I might not feel like going to all the extra effort. The second pic shows an area after the second coat and the dimple issue, plus with either orange peel and/or brush marks remain on most of the hull.




  6. #20
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    Jul 2013
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    NH
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    Hi Conoath. I'm enjoying reading your thread about your canoe. If I ever finish my Goat, I may tackle the Eureka. How is it to carry by yourself and load onto a vehicle? I have an old aluminum canoe and it is just heavy enough that I really don't enjoy lifting it onto the roof or carrying it down to the pond. I've noticed around here that the low end paint thinner or mineral spirits, turpentine or other solvents from the big box store tend to have impurities in them that is oil like and forms a residue. I think it can help to stick to using the name brand thinner that goes along with the product you're finishing with. Maybe you are ? For example, I always use the Epifane thinner with Epifane. I'm currently using the Interlux thinner that was designed to go along with their Pre-Kote primer. It is more expensive, but I think it is worth it. That said, my paint job is coming out serviceable on the Goat interior, but I'm finding it difficult.

    Thinking about it more, I also had some bubbles in my epoxy coat on my center thwart of the Goat. I suspect it was due to incomplete cleaning off of the haze from previous epoxy work.

  7. #21
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    Those look like fisheyes and they're caused by surface contaminates. Once you've wet sanded, don't come back and hit it with a solvent rag, just wash with clean water, maybe with a smidge of alcohol mixed in, to help it flash off faster. Solvents on paint can cause bad things to happen, like getting into a pin hole or surface defect and waiting until another coat comes down to show itself.

  8. #22
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    Aug 2011
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    There seems to be quite a few problems you're having Canoath that I had as well. In the end my biggest problem was rushing things especialy not letting the varnish cure long enough between coats. I also made the mistake of wiping down with thinners and even after washing down with detergent and then several times with clear water, I had problems. When I have to re-varnish I'll pick nice weather and give myself plenty of time.

    Those decks look great Canoath.

    This thread has been a wealth of information and learning. I must say "hi Par"

    If it's any help Beaton1, our Eureka weighs 25.5 kilos. My wife and I always load it together and it's really easy.

  9. #23
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    Nov 2011
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    Riverina NSW
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    Thanks fellas. Friday's my next day off so rather than beat myself up waiting anxiously for paint and varnish to dry, I've set the canoe aside and will wait to make sure everything's ready for a sand and hopefully get at least one more coat of varnish and one decent flat coat of paint on over Friday and Saturday. A couple of good days to cure ahead. Spring's always weird here with late frosts and little heat waves but over the next few days we'll be climbing out of the cooler range up to the high 20s degC/77F+. I did further reading about solvents, the difference between mineral spirits and mineral turpentine, thinners etc. It's a common theme, stick with the same matched brands and quality rather than opting for low end alternatives. Ironically I held a 1litre can of WhiteKnight thinners specifically for this epoxy paint but put it down because I baulked at the $30/L price tag. Not that I've thinned any paint yet nor varnish but I should know better. Every time I skimp on quality with the canoe it seems to bight me back later and so far I've used cheap turps to clean sanded surfaces and prep good brushes for re-use. So it makes sense that both practices have added impurities to the surfaces and caused fish eyes in the paint. A change of tact this weekend based on all the advice above; wet sand, thorough dry, no turps, be patient and use foam brushes to tip. Fingers crossed.

    Beaton1, I'm not sure what mine weighs but I will try and get a measurement when it's done. IMO it'd be heavier than Flatdog's, but I dunno, maybe between 25 and 30kg/55-66lb and still without permanent seats. It definitely hasn't been a light build compared to other Eurekas but looking at some specs of similarly sized 15' fibreglass canoes, they easily weigh more with many around the 35kg/77lb mark so I'm pleasantly surprised to see the Eureka weigh less. Much like Flatdog I'll usually have a helper, my son, to load the canoe on my old 'cruiser ute pictured below. Two pool noodles are split, one to go over the top rail behind the cab and the other on the tailgate. We load from the side usually, lifting the fore deck over the top rail of the ute and slide further only on gunwales then the rear is placed on the tailgate with no part of the decks resting on anything. Two ratchet straps are thrown over as shown and without being too tight to cause distortion of the hull, holds the canoe down no probs. The photo from 2011 shows a 3" and 1" strap but I use two 1" straps now and can travel at highway speeds and it never moves.

    I can carry and load it by myself much the same way but it can be a bit of a struggle if the wind catches it and I'm off balance. Carrying the canoe over my head with centre spreader or yoke over my shoulders works well though I haven't shaped the spreader to comfortably sit on my shoulders yet, nor have I added padding, so it can be a tad uncomfortable. I didn't realise the yoke could be used to carry the canoe like that until I saw a youtube clip demonstrating it a while back. I once pulled a muscle in my shoulder after overbalancing just after hoisting the canoe above my head in a single move which was silly. Man it hurt but luckily short lived and no lasting injury. Once again after wathcing a youtube demo, I started lifting it properly, lifting the canoe onto my thighs first when it's in the water. At home though it lives on saw horses upside down so I just squat under it and lift. During this refurb though I've moved the canoe the short distances between shed, garage and back yard just by carrying it right side up and two handed under the inwale against my hip. So a solo lift can be a bit awkward and heavy though I'd hasten to add it's no worse than a commercially available heavier FG canoe and I can only assume loading on a not so tall SUV or car roof would be easier than my ute.


  10. #24
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    Jul 2013
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    NH
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    Thanks for the information about the weights. The weight of the aluminum canoe is probably similar to the fiberglass and likely in the 70-80 lb range. As you mentioned, it's the initial lift that I really dread. I typically roll it onto one end and drive it into the ground upside down and then walk it forward from the other end until it balances over my shoulders. My neck will get bruised from the yoke if I carry it a ways. I load it onto the Subaru from the side and it works but it feels like one false move and it's going into the hood of the car. If the canoe was 20 lbs lighter it would make a big difference I think. My son isn't old enough yet to help.

  11. #25
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    Nov 2011
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    Riverina NSW
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    Well folks, relaunch yesterday It's funny, but no matter what imperfections bugged me before, they all disappeared once the canoe was in the water. The deck was my favourite part of the refurb so far as building it, fairing and getting a fairly good finish on it. But when watching my kids in the canoe, all I noticed was the gloss blue hull reflecting the water rather than any of the bright finish. Similarly, when three of us were inside, apart from enjoying being back on the water again, all I could notice was the ease of which the canoe slid through the water due to the smooth hull compared to the previously textured surface that was from the use of acrylic exterior paint which was rolled but not tipped. It was a rough surface that must have created a lot of drag which is apparent now when compared to the performance of this slick epoxy enamel finish. The acrylic was a bit soft but durable and easy to patch but impossible to sand and couldn't be easily removed without damaging the epoxy below via heat gun removal. This epoxy enamel has hardened up nicely, easily sands and touch ups should be a breeze.

    PAR, I found a big improvement with using foam by using high density foam rollers and foam brushes to tip rather than short nap mohair rollers and bristle brushes. Like you say, used as disposables they're cheap and clean with little risk of contaminants and I found no lint issues compared to before. I've still got fisheyes and there appears to be new ones as older ones just appear deeper than before. I feel the only answer here is to heavily sand back and maybe prime, but there's no rush or need to do this. Currently it's serviceable but when I do repaint, it'll be done much later purely for my own education and practice. I was also a little disappointed with the brush marks left during the tipping process of the paint. For some reason tipping left a bristle brush pattern that didn't level out. I feel this is due to the paint not flowing too well and perhaps needing thinning? I was using the bottom of the barrel so to speak, with only dregs left behind in the tin after the final coat.

    Conversely, there were no problems with the varnish using the same equipment; ie fresh foam rollers and foam brushes. The varnish finished really well. I rolled an even coat, tipped and left it alone, flipping the canoe within an hour to avoid dust contamination and so I could work on the hull. There are a couple more things to do before I can call the refurb completely done. Swivel padded seating and some white added to the hull. There's a photoshopped impression down the bottom and whilst I've got the white paint ready, the seats will have to wait because there's just too many bills coming in at the moment.

    The high density roller and foam brush in use



    This image shows best the process and result. In between the tipped and rolled area you can see towards the top how the hull was sanded and what was left behind. Some areas had orange peel, some completely flat and some had fisheyes still visible. I was trying to leave a decent amount of previous coats on hoping the final coat would fill little depressions. You can also see to the left, the pattern of brush stroke left by the foam brush. It flattened out a little bit before curing but not totally. It doesn't follow any other brush pattern left after sanding and I tried different parts of the brush and changed brushes after one side. I altered pressures, just experimented and the whole lot ended up the same. It's partly why I'm thinking the paint may have needed thinning. If a perfect finish is to be achieved a full sand back to epoxy will be needed, I think. Might wait till after this summer.


    The varnish, completely fine, turned out well.


    The hull and topside before relaunch



    In the water. I didn't take many photos but these two looked the best.



    And finally, the grand plan. Apart from other accessories I've got but yet to add; like an anchor, fish finder mounts, rod holders - below is what we'd like to do. White paint as shown plus foldable swivel seats which will go on a ply seat base built like others have done. Plus I'll have them readily removable and they shouldn't add too much weight.

  12. #26
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    Jan 2005
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    sydney
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    That looks great! What kind of paint is it on the exterior?
    What does tipped mean?

    Very curious as i am just starting a canoe. I'll probably copy your deck idea!!! Noice!

    In my current fishing canoe i used seats from here. Canoe Accessories
    The slide off seat backs are very convenient.
    Last edited by schmik; 21st October 2013 at 04:43 PM. Reason: added url

  13. #27
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    Nov 2011
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    Riverina NSW
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    Thanks schmik. Paint is epoxy enamel, White Knight Rust Guard from Bunnings. I was going to use polyurethane paint from boatcraftpacific but I didn't want to wait for shipping. They'll get more orders from me when I start my GIS.

    Roll and Tip is simply rolling on small sections of paint followed by using a brush to smooth the paint back onto itself. It's an alternative to spraying. The best demonstration I've seen online is below.


    Interesting link to the canoe accessories. After seeing a few examples of similar seats I'd probably have to have a go at doing them myself to be honest. I wanted to go down that path but I need padding, LOL. We've spent hours at a time out fishing on a weir the past couple of years and the swivel seats from the likes of BCF fit the bill.

  14. #28
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    sydney
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    I have been a DIY'er for 20years (including as lot of painting).... I think i wept a little when i watched that clip. THANK YOU.

  15. #29
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    The trick with roll and tip is holding the brush nearly straight up and having it nearly dry. I also noticed in that video, the paint wasn't rolled out as uniformly as I would like, too large an area for the roller size, with each refill. It's hard to tell really, not knowing the conditions, but the small stiff foam rollers don't hold much paint, so you can only work small areas at a time. I like to make a "N" or "W" shape as I first apply the paint, lifting on each stroke to deposit the paint. The next step is to fill in the little triangles created with this technique, by dragging the roller through the freshly applied paint, pulling it toward the unpainted areas. Once this is done I make at least 3 passes on the area, uniformly, which distributes the paint in an even coating. Then it's time to tip off, with just enough brush pressure to knock out the bubbles. I'm not trying to move paint so much as just kiss the surface, maintaining a wet edge as I go (like you did).

    Done with some practice, roll and tip can look just about as good as a spray job, but again it depends on the paint and environmental conditions. In fact, I've done roll and tip jobs, then I've compounded and buffed it up after it was well cured, so people swear it was sprayed. Usually you'll need an extra coat, if you plan on buffing it smooth. This is a great way to make a hand brushed paint job look great, but you do need enough film thickness to knock it smooth with a buffer.

    Yep, I've all but given up on hair rollers and brushes. Foam is easy to make look good and more importantly seems to leave a more uniform coating. Yeah, there's some imperfections, but damn it does look pretty darn good, doesn't it. I've gotten a little anal about hand done paint jobs in recent years, mostly because the paints have improved so much, that I can do nice work with not a lot of effort. I'll bet you haven't received a single disparaging remark about your paint and bright decks. This should give you a fair indication of how well you've done. Good job and more pictures please.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmik View Post
    I have been a DIY'er for 20years (including as lot of painting).... I think i wept a little when i watched that clip. THANK YOU.
    Hahaha. I remember watching it the first time and it was like WOW! I thought I'll never spray anything again. I've not got much experience but did spray a track car a few years ago which gave it 10ft appeal. Stand any closer and the imperfections were obvious and abundant. Much later after hearing about roll n tip, sure enough there were guys out there successfully rolling and tipping duco, though not widespread. I like spraying but I'm becoming a convert to roll n tip for boats at least.

    PAR, after watching that video again I noticed a few differences too so far as I had to work my paint a lot more to evenly cover the area and I had to load the roller twice sometimes to do a similar sized area to him. By pure chance I did "N" and "W" patterns plus rolled similarly to you in a conscious effort to evenly cover the area rather than simply making every bit blue. And I wanted to ask you about dry v's loaded brush for tipping and brush angles and pressure. You've answered that now. I tried a bit of everything but given the results of brush marks everywhere and not getting the coverage from a single loading of the roller like the video, I'm more of the belief a bit of thinners could've helped. Though I do acknowledge the video had many different variables, eg; International Brightsides I think, temp, humidity etc. I suppose I'm not going to know how my paint will behave until I give it another go. For the price of another $35 tin of paint I can see myself sanding this hull back and having another crack, some time. Haha, one day.

    You're right, nobody noticed the imperfections but there is a hankering to satisfy an urge to get it right. I'd be over the moon to come back to you all with a hull without fish eyes or brush marks plus knowing I'll build up experience and confidence for other projects.

    As for more pictures, I'm all pictured out. I'll be preoccupied for the next month unfortunately and doubt there'll be time to make any changes let alone take it out on the lake again any time soon which is a bummer but you'll definitely hear about it when I get a chance to do more.

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