Thread: Running Rigging for the Goat

PAR might have some suggestions as to good suppliers ... he is even more helpful now it is cold and he has to wait for the epoxy to cure!!!

Spectra and Dyneema are trade names for the same thing.

Look at this page from WEST Marine
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...0&classNum=666

West Coast Sailing
http://www.westcoastsailing.net/osCo...decdd42fc1c493

They may have the low tech ropes too.

General Rigging advice and a link to the specific goat stuff are at the bottom of this page
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/t...rformance.html

MIK

Thanks, MIK. West Coast Sailing seems to have everything I need. Shipping from Oregon will be much cheaper than from Oz.

Not having the mast and sail yet, it may appear I'm getting ahead of myself but I wanted a short length of Spectra for the bow-trailer tie-down. I figured I'd put a shopping list together with a couple extra feet for the tie-down. It appears the Dyneema product has better abrasion and UV resistance so that's probably what I'll use for all the low-stretch applications.

At last, something I can comment on from a reasonably knowledgeable perspective! I used to design ropes for a living, right about the time that Spectra and Dyneema were coming to prominence.

MIK is absolutely correct to specify it for halyards and other applications where low stretch is essential. It is probably less suitable for a trailer tie-down though. The extremely low stretch means that greater shock loads may be transferred to the boat and there could actually more chance of breaking the rope than if a standard polyester was used.

Spectra and Dyneema are exceptionally good fibres possessing high strength, low stretch and extremely good UV and abrasion resistance. My preference would be to use them without the 'protective' polyester braid they are often covered with - in small sizes you can end up with a pitifully small amount of the 'performance' fibre and stretch for a given load is often equal to or more than a good pre-stretched polyester.

12-strand 100% Spectra and Dyneema lines really offer the best performance and are worth paying for - they are also usually easy to fingertrap splice and stay more round when running around corners under load, helping to reduce friction.

Sorry for the lecture, I just got carried away!

Regards,

Chris

Thanks for the very useful info from the perspective of a specialist. No lecturing was detected at all!

I get what you're saying about the bow tie down but I'll share my thinking on it.

First, about 6 inches of the bottom will rest firmly on the support I built for it, sloped to match the angle of the bottom, with a double layer of the outdoor fiber-rubber mat I used on the bunks. The bow eye (mine is lower than some I've seen on here but almost identically positioned as the one on Gruff) slides into the top of a stout post running from the trailer tongue all the way to the eye. The notch for the eye is just deep enough to prevent side movement. Ahead of the eye notch is a narrow slot running the rest of the way through the post. About 3 inches down I have a small cleat. I have a small line tied to the cleat and it runs up, though the notch, then around the eye twice, then back down to the cleat. My thinking is that if that line has any stretch it will wear more quickly than a line with little to no stretch.

What I tried to do was secure the boat at the bow in a fashion similar to what is happening with a larger craft that is winched down hard against a rubber or plastic bow fitting. There's no movement possible and my double mat is providing the cushion.

Yes, that sounds much better than the lashing I had in my minds' eye! It sounds like the bow will be admirably supported.

I guess that my only remaining worry would be how much 'preload' that you can sweat into a short length of Spectra - it might be hard to get it really tight and snug. 100% Spectra will probably resist abrasion better than polyester but you will need to be careful that it doesn't slip on the cleat. If you were thinking of Spectra with a polyester overbraid I think any advantage over straight pre-stretched would be minimal or non-existant.

Chris

I have it temporarily secured with a length of small nylon braid, just something cheap I had laying around. The run between the cleat and the eye is only about 4 inches. With this tempo line tied securely I tried lifting the bow off the padded rest and it didn't budge--the tongue was lifted first. I could probably use it as is for short slow trips but the Dyneema line will give me a little added security. I wouldn't think of taking it out on the interstate without several back-ups in place. I live just a few miles from a couple possible launch sites and trips will be slow and short.

Thanks for the great info about the nature of these new-fangled lines. As MIK says somewhere they have come into such wide usage in recent years that their formerly outrageous prices have dropped a lot. I just ordered all of the bits I will need for a total of $95 from one of the sources MIK linked above.

PAR .. do you know of any supercheap rope supplier? For future reference? The prices at the two above looked reasonably OK for cut foot prices compared to OZ, but do you know of somewhere that does it unusually cheap?

MIK

As covered in the Lug Rig Heaven thread, I have been using 2.5mm plain Dyneema for 3 full racing seasons now for all control lines, halyards and even shrouds.

Here's my experience:

The very thin lines with small blocks makes a really good easy pull solution. Not only cheaper but better, how good is that. Would never use anything else.

Dyneema is quite slippery, good for going round blocks but not good in the hand or in a clam cleat. Where you use cam cleats for adjustable lines such as downhaul, or kicker, it would be best to use a larger kevlar braided line for the last bit of the control line which is oin your hand and goes into the cleat. My Flickr pics show the thing






Dyneema does stretch when first used, took a couple of sails to firm up the lines. Then it stretches a little bit after a hard sail but seems to recover after leaving it.

Very easy to splice, my son has really got the hang of it. This might help

http://www.keepitsoaring.com/LKSC/Do...ing-manual.pdf

For some reason the Scow lug rigs around here are stayed. This is unusual for a small lug rig but is the way things are here. I used 2.5mm with some concern for my shrouds. After three years use I decided to replace them after the end of this season racing, that is after Sunday's final frostbite race.

You guessed it. Got a great start, 20 yards ahead at first mark. Touched flag on mark, did a 360 degree turn, raced on, got in way of another racer, so another 360. Still second, got back to first by top mark. Quite a race so far.

Round the bottom mark, up the beat in first place and yes, the shroud parted and mast fell over! Because the carbon glass mast is so light, and no partner at the deck, not damage done, quite a relief. Dropped the sail, dropped the mast and sat the race out.

So the shroud life was just 1/2 a race short of my plan. Not too bad. The line actually parted right at the masthead where the line was tied to the eye bolt at the masthead. I have read somewhere that a knotted line is weaker than a spliced line. Have to get my son to teach me splicing.

Will replace all three shrouds with 3mm Dyneema over the winter.

Brian

Brian, your boat looks beautifully fitted out, the attention to detail is great!

The industry rule of thumb is that knotting reduces rope strength by 50%, splicing by 10%.

As I recall there was some evidence that Dyneema is not quite so badly affected by a knot. Kevlar, on the other hand, loses 70% or more of its strength. Kevlar is also badly affected when run through small blocks or sheaves. If you have a look inside the rope after a season or two you can usually find the powder residue of what used to be the kevlar fibre.

"Stitching and whipping" can also be a very effective method of joining/forming an eye - similarly efficient to splicing and much easier to do on small diameter braids.

Chris

That's amazing how well 2.5mm Dyneema has been working for you. I have read about your boat and rig elsewhere but had no idea the size line you were using.

I went with what MIK calls for as first choice for the various lines, with the 5mm Dyneema halyard the largest of the high-tech ropes. (The mainsheet is 8mm soft finish polyester double braid, the largest line on the GIS.) I wasn't able to find a 3mm low-tech line for lacings and lashings and since I wanted to single-source I substituted 2mm Spectra for those. The downhaul is 4mm Dyneema and the traveler and mainsheet bridle are 3mm Dyneema (might be Spectra). I ordered an extra three feet of the 3mm stuff to use as the bow tie-down on the trailer. This seems awfully small but as I mentioned above I will be making very short low-speed trips with this set up and would add something beefier if I ever decide to take it on the highway.

Since I still have the varnish and final painting left to be done it will probably be another month or two before I order the mast and sail. If I get her ready for sailing in the middle of our mild winter I might give it a short trial but it will probably be spring before I take any chances in winds other than light. I'm looking forward to testing her under oars, though.

Howdy,

The 2.5mm dyneema is a different type I think. It is all Dyneema.

The ropes I specified for some of the boat are conventional polyester.

But for the spectra/dyneema lines they are dyneema/spectra core with a polyester outer. This bulks them up so they are easier to handle.

I specified 4mm for the halyards initially but had some complaints that they were too thin and hurt people's hands. I didn't find it too bad, but I know how to "bounce" a halyard so my holding hand doesn't need to do a lot of work

The pure dyneema is available here but it is still a specialist rope at about three times the price of the ones I specify.

Brian bought his mail order from Germany. A whole roll.

I do use and specify similar stuff for raceboats. The one without the cover is great to splice - just by passing it through itself.

Don't worry too much about the knots and losing strength for the GIS. Because of the way the boat is rigged and derigged the knots can have much less of an effect. Spectra/dyneema is much less affected by knots, I believe than normal ropes or kevlar.

Also because the ropes are tied off they never get tied in exactly the same place ... I suspect the wear and tear is spread out more.

There are two knots to be concerned about.
The one where the main halyard gets tied to the front end of the yard. I suggest the rope is taken through the hole and wrapped around the spar before being tied. It will be tied in slightly different places all the time. The halyard for BETH was the weaker and knot hating Kevlar, but it lasted lots of sailing over about 4 years until I left it behind on a beach somewhere. I had occasionally cut the end of too and I used either end for tying off.

The tie off for the downhaul - For BETH tie a stopper knot in the end before tying it to the boom with a clove hitch then when it goes back along the foredeck it has a trucker's hitch. That way the small radius turns of the stopper knot never get much load at all. For the Goat it gets tied off to the saddle on the deck ... I really don't think there will be a problem using a bowline and then cow hitching the bowline around the saddle. Or a great place for a stitch and whip splice. Do I have a link ... um ... no.

Or you can do a stitched seizing to create an eye ... suitable for thin ropes - maybe up to 8mm highly loaded (halyards/downhauls) or up to 10mm lightly loaded (mainsheets). This is my method. I don't know the sizes things SHOULD be.

1. Take the end of a rope and bend it over to form an eye. with a sailmakers needle and whipping twine stitch through both pieces of rope starting from near the short end of the eye leaving a tail in the whipping twine at least 50mm long - longer is better while you get the hang of it.
2. Stitch toward the "eye end" about 6 times the rope diameter (with thicker ropes I break this into two separate lots 3 times the rope diamter about 20mm apart) doing stitches about 3 or 4mm apart. When you get reach that point after going through the last time wrap the whipping twine as tight as you can around both parts of the rope. Do the same again but head back toward the place the stitching started. The idea is to completely cover the whole of the rope in this neat "whipping" that will completely cover the rope. Pull really tight.
3. When you get to the beginnning point cover the original starting point with one or two layers turns of whipping
4. Pass the needle through both pieces of rope VERY close to the end of the whipping
5. Pull tight and trim off BOTH ends of the whipping twine leaving about15mm excess length.
6. Wet fingers and set light to the tips of the whipping twine. When it just gets to the surface with a WET finger simultaneosly put the flame out and press the burning blob into the surface. DONT wait too long or it will melt your beautiful seizing, but it does need to touch the surface. DONT try to make it too tidy.
7. The whipping line now has two blobs welded to the rope surface... it ain't going to unravel for anyone!!!

It is best to make the eye long enough to do a cow hitch to attach the rope to the saddle. I'll bet you know it already.
Here is andy's method http://www.marinews.com/Cow-Hitch-506.php
It is not the way we will do it. In our case we have the eye. So you just put the tip of the eye through the deck saddle or ring then put the other end of the rope through the tip of the eye. Simple. (with a knotted shockcord below - btw always TIE shockcord - stitched siezings are not reliable because the diameter changes too much with load)






PDRacer rigging guide - not the same placement of the saddle for the GIS!!! For lug rigs is is beside the mast.

Hope this helps

MIK

Thanks, MIK. The West Coast Sailing site seems to use the terms Dyneema and Spectra to describe rope of two different constructions. When I was trying to decide which to use I read their description which stated the Spectra is 100% Spectra fibers while their Dyneema had a Spectra core and polyester outer layer. The ultimate breaking strength reflected this, too; the Dyneema SWL and BS were slightly lower than their Spectra of the same size. I opted for Dyneema wherever possible but settled on one or two sizes that were only available as pure Spectra. Not that it matters, really, I just wanted to point out the stuff available in the US, at West Coast Sailing anyway, is described as having slightly different constructions.

Regarding the pictures and rigging deails above, you've answered part of a question I've had about the down haul. Your instructions (in the plan kit) show two methods; in each drawing the running end of the line is shown running off to the side, but to what and where? Since it could be advantageous to adjust this line while sailing, do you run the downhaul tail back to a point where it can be reached by a solo sailor who is busy with the sheet and tiller?

Or do you just cleat it off near the mast?

Up to you MAM,

To take it back to the back of the centrecase ... it would make sense to take it down to the floor of the boat and back along the floor.

A compromise would be to have a cleat on the back of the front seat or mounted upside down under the mast partner.

My favourite cleat for this purpose is the little clamcleat CL211Mk2 which is a one piece alloy cleat with no moving parts. Holds onto lines 4mm and under tenaciously and lasts forever.

MIK

I think I'll opt for simplicity and cleat the downhaul close to the mast. Running it aft especially along the floor sound like a complication I don't need and wouldn't want to pay for.

Speaking of which, my package of cut line arrived today, from West Coast Sailing. They were very quick and efficient getting my small order out the door. As MIK suggested the lines are of different colors so there will be no confusion which is which. The only pure white line is the 3mm Spectra. It has a waxy feel unlike the Dyneema lines which have a fine-braid cover. Based on appearance and feel I believe the two pure Spectra lines are the 3mm (for downhaul and travelers) and the 2mm (for lacings and lashings). The 2mm stuff is more flat than round, which is nice; it will bear more on the Douglas fir spars, reducing chafe and damage to the finish.