Thread: Sail and a outboard engine

Originally Posted by Rick_Tatum

In other words, if you are going through adverse conditions in order to go fishing for pleasure, a GIS may not be the right boat.

If you mean fishing, like fishing with a fishing rod, you will never see me do that
It will be with fishing traps.

Bjarne

Remember the option of putting weight under the mid seat when using the boat initially. it was a Graybeal innovation.

He used to use about 100 pounds I think. It reduces the top speed a fair bit, but doesn't reduce the average speed much.

I will ask him to comment.

Best wishes
MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Remember the option of putting weight under the mid seat when using the boat initially. it was a Graybeal innovation.

He used to use about 100 pounds I think. It reduces the top speed a fair bit, but doesn't reduce the average speed much.

I will ask him to comment.

Best wishes
MIK

OK, Mik has rattled my cage... and I can comment on the topics here. Some of you may remember me as an early GIS builder. I don't know what hull # I am, but we were the first build in the Americas.The first outside of OZ? I'm also one of Mik's recommended builders.

We used the Goat with oars and outboard only (no sail rig) for the first two seasons. Here's the setup - with an offset notch to accommodate the outboard:





We put a 4stroke 5 hp Nissan (Tohatsu) on it. Partly because because we got a really good deal on a nearly new "used" motor... and partly because (as an old powerboat guy) I figured More Is Better. Well... it's a perfectly good little machine, and I love the quiet. But more is not better. As has been mentioned, more is heavier. And more awkward to tote. More doesn't move the boat faster... it just makes it point the nose further in the air, and drag the transom more:



My conclusion? A 2 hp is all that's necessary... and All That's Desirable.


The notion of unclamping the motor from the transom and strapping it alongside the daggerboard case is an intriguing one. As Mik mentioned, when we finally put a sailing rig on ours, and started to learn to sail, the first thing I did was capsize the boat. The first day. I learned what an Unintentional Gybe was the hard way. After that - whenever I sailed solo - I used "training wheels." This was a pair of traction bags. These are long, skinny, 70 pound bags of sand. I layed one on each side of the daggerboard case - for a total of 140 pounds. It really steadied the boat for this neophyte sailor. By the end of the summer, I'd progressed to the point where I've never used them again... but they certainly helped. That doryish hull shape really steadies down the more weight you put in her.

However - In order to use the motor as ballast, you'd have to remove it from the transom and move it into position under the seat/along the case. This is going to be easier said than done while at sea. With our motor... I'd only attempt it in a hard chance. As mentioned, those things are expensive. I'd hate to drop one overboard. Another issue with 4strokes: they won't tolerate being turned upside down. They will usually lie on their side ok (one side, but not the other). However, if you get the lower (prop) end higher than the upper (cylinder) end - you'll get oil in the cylinder. This will lock up the motor and it wont start again until you clean it out. I've done it. It's another task I wouldn't relish doing at sea. If you're firmly attached to the notion, these two points would also argue Very Strongly for the smallest, lightest motor.


So, that brings us back around to the original question of whether to sail with a motor on the transom. We don't. We rig it for sail OR rig it for motoring OR rig it for rowing only (sometimes). We do keep the oars aboard while motoring or sailing, as a backup propulsion mode (don't we Mik??). I've thought that I'll use the boat for some longer-range dinghy cruising at some point - along the lower Columbia, or in Puget Sound - in which case I'd ship both motor and sail rig... but I haven't so far. Thus I can't report on the (inevitable, I'd think) effect on sailing performance. For my imagined cruising adventures, I doubt it would be enough to really care about. For daysailing, I think I'd hate all the weight on the transom.

I'm no experienced gearhead, so can't speak definitively to the long-term effects of dunking an outboard. Never managed it myself, but have had to listen to the Griping, Grousing, and Caterwhalling of friends who have. Won't ruin it, but will make a job for yourself cleaning it up.

And let me reiterate. The Goat will capsize if you're not careful. Especially when the stick is up, but no sails, and you're rowing.. or moving around the boat, she's a bit tender. In five years, we've only managed it twice. The first was mentioned above. The second was just recently when friend Jerry (also a beginning sailor) took it out at Timothy Lake. Mik got to watch. Jerry rowed out, then went forward to raise sail. Sitting in the skinny, canoe-like, forward end... and off to one side... he started rigging. His weight heeled the boat slightly. His dog, sitting aft, decided he didn't like sitting on a slant, and quickly moved downhill. Between the weight of the mast aloft, and both bods shifted to port, that was enough to take her over:

If the motor had been on, it would have gotten dunked.

DELETED: all those big images.


Anyway... I hope that's useful.

Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
Portland, OR

Oars, when do you need oars?

Oh yeah... when the wood screws pull out of the rudder fittings...

And we were doing fine, drifting downwind towards camp... glad for the tow....

Truth be told, I didn't think of the oars either when Mik and I shoved off for a sail...

Bob

Originally Posted by BobWes

Oars, when do you need oars?

Oh yeah... when the wood screws pull out of the rudder fittings...

And we were doing fine, drifting downwind towards camp... glad for the tow....

Truth be told, I didn't think of the oars either when Mik and I shoved off for a sail...

Bob

Bob,

I was just twitting Mik because he insisted - ignoring the advice of wiser folk (who shall for modesty's sake remain nameless) - upon leaving them ashore. Y'all would have made it ashore just fine... but you gave one of the Coots the chance to say he once rescued Michael Storer himself. A story to tell the grandbabies

Originally Posted by arbordg

OK, Mik has rattled my cage... and I can comment on the topics here. Some of you may remember me as an early GIS builder. I don't know what hull # I am, but we were the first build in the Americas.The first outside of OZ? I'm also one of Mik's recommended builders.

We used the Goat with oars and outboard only (no sail rig) for the first two seasons. Here's the setup - with an offset notch to accommodate the outboard:





We put a 4stroke 5 hp Nissan (Tohatsu) on it. Partly because because we got a really good deal on a nearly new "used" motor... and partly because (as an old powerboat guy) I figured More Is Better. Well... it's a perfectly good little machine, and I love the quiet. But more is not better. As has been mentioned, more is heavier. And more awkward to tote. More doesn't move the boat faster... it just makes it point the nose further in the air, and drag the transom more:





My conclusion? A 2 hp is all that's necessary... and All That's Desirable.


The notion of unclamping the motor from the transom and strapping it alongside the daggerboard case is an intriguing one. As Mik mentioned, when we finally put a sailing rig on ours, and started to learn to sail, the first thing I did was capsize the boat. The first day. I learned what an Unintentional Gybe was the hard way. After that - whenever I sailed solo - I used "training wheels." This was a pair of traction bags. These are long, skinny, 70 pound bags of sand. I layed one on each side of the daggerboard case - for a total of 140 pounds. It really steadied the boat for this neophyte sailor. By the end of the summer, I'd progressed to the point where I've never used them again... but they certainly helped. That doryish hull shape really steadies down the more weight you put in her.

However - In order to use the motor as ballast, you'd have to remove it from the transom and move it into position under the seat/along the case. This is going to be easier said than done while at sea. With our motor... I'd only attempt it in a hard chance. As mentioned, those things are expensive. I'd hate to drop one overboard. Another issue with 4strokes: they won't tolerate being turned upside down. They will usually lie on their side ok (one side, but not the other). However, if you get the lower (prop) end higher than the upper (cylinder) end - you'll get oil in the cylinder. This will lock up the motor and it wont start again until you clean it out. I've done it. It's another task I wouldn't relish doing at sea. If you're firmly attached to the notion, these two points would also argue Very Strongly for the smallest, lightest motor.


So, that brings us back around to the original question of whether to sail with a motor on the transom. We don't. We rig it for sail OR rig it for motoring OR rig it for rowing only (sometimes). We do keep the oars aboard while motoring or sailing, as a backup propulsion mode (don't we Mik??). I've thought that I'll use the boat for some longer-range dinghy cruising at some point - along the lower Columbia, or in Puget Sound - in which case I'd ship both motor and sail rig... but I haven't so far. Thus I can't report on the (inevitable, I'd think) effect on sailing performance. For my imagined cruising adventures, I doubt it would be enough to really care about. For daysailing, I think I'd hate all the weight on the transom.

I'm no experienced gearhead, so can't speak definitively to the long-term effects of dunking an outboard. Never managed it myself, but have had to listen to the Griping, Grousing, and Caterwhalling of friends who have. Won't ruin it, but will make a job for yourself cleaning it up.

And let me reiterate. The Goat will capsize if you're not careful. Especially when the stick is up, but no sails, and you're rowing.. or moving around the boat, she's a bit tender. In five years, we've only managed it twice. The first was mentioned above. The second was just recently when friend Jerry (also a beginning sailor) took it out at Timothy Lake. Mik got to watch. Jerry rowed out, then went forward to raise sail. Sitting in the skinny, canoe-like, forward end... and off to one side... he started rigging. His weight heeled the boat slightly. His dog, sitting aft, decided he didn't like sitting on a slant, and quickly moved downhill. Between the weight of the mast aloft, and both bods shifted to port, that was enough to take her over:




If the motor had been on, it would have gotten dunked.

Sorry about the image sizes, Mik... I still haven't figured out how to post the ones from photobucket any smaller <sigh>


Anyway... I hope that's useful.

Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
Portland, OR

Hey David

That image of you trying to take off convinced me not to go for a large engine

I still need the engine when i want to go out sailing unless i want to spend hours trying to sail against the wind to get out in more open water. It's rather simple, no engine, no sailing!
I dont have to do anything about it out at sea. Im sailing in a bay and a bay have shores, so i just need to get out in the bay though the canal. When i reach the bay there is plenty of places to get a shore and rig the GIS for sailing with sail. I do not have to do it at sea, so i can also stow away the engine
The engine can then be used as ballast together with some sandbags.

Bjarne

Bjarne

These discussions are great on this forum. REally happy to have so many viewpoints from knowledgeable people and see it to gradually consolidate into something that helps answer the problem.

Be aware too that after David got used to sailing the boat he stopped using the sandbags after about a year.

MIK

Hi Guys

I have bought me a engine today - it's a Mariner 4HP. Since we have winter here i'll have to wait until spring, so now im just going around and looking at the boat and engine.....

Mariner Outboards


/Bjarne

Just wanted to keep the viewpoint alive, that the GIS is easy, easy, easy to row with a light, balanced pair of oars and the rudder a bit in the water and tiller lashed to the centerline. Even with my mate on the aft tanktop, the boat still rowed effortlessly.

With that said, I too will probably still get a small motor for use when I have kids out. That will hopefully be one of the new Torqueedo's and they will come down a bit in price. The small one weighs just 25 pounds and packs away into a dry bag.

torqeedo: Travel

Cheers

I will use my boat for fishing also. So i need to have something that can sail the most of a day more or less all the time.

One small point... if you do capsize with the motor strapped to the floor mid-ships,
when you right the boat, the motor will be sitting in the water. Drowned and of no use
to get home through the canals...

If motor is absolutely required to go sailing, there might be a strong argument for a
centre-line motor well ahead of the rudder, rather like Bolger's Scooner. Alternatively,
leaving it clamped to one side of the transom gives it a 50% chance of a dunking, vs.
100% chance if strapped to the floor...

cheers
AJ

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

One small point... if you do capsize with the motor strapped to the floor mid-ships,
when you right the boat, the motor will be sitting in the water. Drowned and of no use
to get home through the canals...

If motor is absolutely required to go sailing, there might be a strong argument for a
centre-line motor well ahead of the rudder, rather like Bolger's Scooner. Alternatively,
leaving it clamped to one side of the transom gives it a 50% chance of a dunking, vs.
100% chance if strapped to the floor...

cheers
AJ

Well, i have a waterproof bag that i intend to stuff the motor in when im sailing with the sail. Its a little more complicated, but it will keep my motor dry and safe.

Bjarne

Howdy,

Every well adds so much complication to the boat and the aperture causes so much drag that I am very disinclined towards them.

I've sailed several bolger and other boats with them and they are are really good way of damaging sailing performance. having the rudder in the well makes much more sense with shallow keel boats leaving the transom free for the outboard.

A small boat like the Goat will suffer miserably from a well. With bigger boats sometimes you can contrive to fill in the aperture. But this adds way too much complication to a little boat. it also means the outboard is permanently mounted in the worst place for performance.

MIK

I'll double what Mik has said about outboards in wells. I've a few designs with them and they're difficult to arrange without contrivance, complication or ruining sailing lines. Some are some so bad, it's like dragging a 5 gallon bucket off the stern of the boat.This in a GIS and see what happens.

The best one I did was for a small, flat bottom, aluminum ketch and it was mounted on the centerline aft, in a box. There was just enough room to tilt the engine clear of the water. I didn't use any type of plate, flap or plug to seal the hole, but drag was minimized, because under sail the hole was only partly immersed and open at it's aft end. The transom was elliptical so the rudder was "under hung", because the U shaped hole in the lower portion of the transom left no place for a gudgeon mount. The rudder was on a shaft, through a rudder port that passed down through the well opening's aft end. A small fence was used at the top of the rudder, but I don't think it actually provided much additional "bite".

Since the boat was on the heavy side, for it's size (1,600 lb. displacement on a 16' LWL), the 2 stroke 5 HP outboard didn't weigh down the stern much, though on a lighter boat, it would. The big key to drag reduction was the open aft end of the well, which "relieved" the pressure and turbulence, caused by the well. Other then losing about 3 sq. ft. of bearing area aft and having some additional edges exposed, drag was minimal.

Difficulty comes when you move the well forward and off the centerline. With the well totally immersed and closed up, you have to drag a lot of turbulence with you underway. This is when you see plugs, flaps and other weird contrivances, none of which work satisfactorily, without a lot of clever engineering and usually hydraulics.