Thread: Sliding seat for my BETH???

OK, this is so difficult but I am determined to do it.

For relaxation I will send one of my favorite videos - this is a slide show, to tell the truth:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7N7BgcEr0w"]16X30 Sailing Canoe - Past and Present - YouTube[/ame]

Hi Robert,

Why not sit out as Howard Rice does on his canoe Sylph? He sails on the open ocean and has quite a large sail area (5 sM?) that reefs down a lot.

Originally Posted by Glug

Hi Robert,

Why not sit out as Howard Rice does on his canoe Sylph? He sails on the open ocean and has quite a large sail area (5 sM?) that reefs down a lot.

Yes Peter,
This is my normal technique:



But I want to pull my butt (center of gravity) over the side more, and...
My knees are not efficient like on previous times that sliding seat will be better for central position without kneel - if wind is light and/or if down wind reaching...



***
Waiting for our meet in Poland!
Jerzy Kuliński

Howdy,

The photo of the 16/30 shows how thick the mast has to be to take the loads of the leaning plank.

I think you have enough experience to see how the mast normally looks and make sure it doesn't bend beyond the normal range.

But there is a risk that you could break the mast because of the extra load.

The other way is to work on technique. If it only happens sometimes ... and you can continue sailing after then it's not too bad.

But maybe there is something we can work on in terms of technique.

How often does it happen? Also do you cleat the mainsail? I never suggest having cleats on small sailboats except for jibs and then only upwind ... they virtually ensure capsize or "staggering" as in your photo.

Give me more info and we can see if we can make it easier

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I think you have enough experience to see how the mast normally looks and make sure it doesn't bend beyond the normal range.

Hoping I have.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

But there is a risk that you could break the mast because of the extra load.

I am a careful sailor and I can to forgive mainsail if load will increase.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

The other way is to work on technique. If it only happens sometimes ... and you can continue sailing after then it's not too bad.

Both - kneel, lean, are sometimes very troublesome. My knees as abdominal muscles as well not efficient are.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

How often does it happen? Also do you cleat the mainsail? I never suggest having cleats on small sailboats except for jibs and then only upwind ... they virtually ensure capsize or "staggering" as in your photo.

I never cleat the BETH's mainsail.
This photo

was taken from this video

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sek8sC6w-qo]BETH Jezioro Dziekanowskie-May 13 2011(02) - YouTube[/ame]

on tiny lake (Jezioro Dziekanowskie) when strong and sudden gusts were dropped from over the trees.

There were like this also:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGauVaYXSs4"]Sailing canoe BETH "YuanFen" - 13 maja 2011, Jezioro Dziekanowskie - YouTube[/ame]

and like this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC_maqTybEw"]BETH Jezioro Dziekanowskie-May 13 2011(04) - YouTube[/ame]

And my friend few minutes later capsized...

This also happens at larger Zegrze Lake.


Problems for me?
1. Protection against sudden gusts by sliding my center of gravity to the windward.
2. Relieve knees sailing down wind and if wind is lighter - for sitting on slide seat as on bench as well.
3. Abdominal muscle unloading if long sailing in moderate conditions...

Sounds well?

Originally Posted by Boatmik

But there is a risk that you could break the mast because of the extra load.

The possibility of breaking the mast by me is purely theoretical, because, first, rather I avoid strong winds early reefing and forgive, and do not push the sails, and secondly, I need this leaning plank is rather as a support for ballasting, for not hump abdominal muscles and as a bench.

Hi Robert,

I have been doing a big update to the software behind my website for the last few days. I was really pushing the internet connectivity of my phone to the limit!

Sorry if this seems a bit basic ... but let's start there.

Are you aware there are two ways of getting rid of the heeling from a gust.

1/ when going upwind or close to upwind you point the boat up towards the wind and ease sail and lean harder ... all at once.

2/ When reaching or broad reaching you steer the opposite direction and ease the sails - you steer more downwind. Typically this angle can be quite big and sudden. 20 or 40 degrees is not uncommon. This does several things.

1. The easing of the sail gets rid of the initial pressure of the gust
2. The change in angle means the direction of the force of the sail is more forwards for speed rather than sideways for heeling
3. The change of direction also increases the power in the eased sail so you really take off
4. When you hit the right direction you can pull the mainsail on a bit more to maximise power .. this might mean you have to steer a little further downwind to get the bigger force more forward.
5. The final trick is all of this should happen in the second before the gust hits. Which is nice if you can see it on the water. Often if close to trees you won't see but you will hear.
6. Then when the gust starts to end you don't come in from a leaning position but point the boat higher and pull the mainsail in to keep balance.

This is also a very fast way of sailing. Because when you are in the gust you are travelling more in the same direction ... which keeps you in the gust longer. And when the gust ends and you are in the lull you steer towards the direction where the next gust is coming from. Also it is an extremely fun thing to do in a boat with a high speed potential like BETH. The extra distance is compensated for by much more speed. It is probably not worth doing quite so much in an OzRacer in terms of getting to your destination ... but if you don't capsize the OzRacer in a gust by steering downwind a big angle ... well ... that saves time too!

You can't see the big angle changes here .. but it is a fellow designer Dave Gentry sailing Paul Helbert's PDRacer which was modified to be like an Oz part way through the build. But you can see how he steers downwind whenever a gust hits .. he is an excellent sailor and big and heavy ... so he can keep the angle of steering smaller ... but you can definitely see what he does.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwhZ1y-X5MU"]Dave Gentry in PDR Kwik Kwak at Mt. Storm, WV - YouTube[/ame]

This one is not quite so instructive because he is gradually moving to an upwind course. Though you can see a nice gybe. Always fix your concentration on the heel of the boat during a gybe .. don't guess where your weight is needed .. let the boat tell you!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFRVTJjOClU"]Dave Gentry in the PDR I built from Michael Storer's plans. - YouTube[/ame]

Some explain it in a shorthand way that when reaching or heading downwind you steer to keep the hull underneath the mast when the gust or lull comes.

It is important to know the angles for this downwind method are quite large. 40 degrees down in the gust or up in the lull is not uncommon.

The interesting thing with dinghy racers is that if you observe a race from a distance ... the boats at the front are almost always sailed much flatter than the boats at the back. The boats at the back will often say "we are 'not heavy enough' to hold the boat down" but then you point out that there are lighter crews in the front part that are holding their boat much flatter.

One way to practice this is to get used to holding the boat excessively upright ... heeling to windward slightly. The advantage of this is that if the boat is perfectly flat there is a lot of energy needed to start it heeling. But if not quite flat it heels easily.

The point is that controlling heel is often more about technique than it is about weight. BETH certainly puts more emphasis on it than most!!! So you can see how she is improving your sailing. She certainly improved mine!

Does this seem familiar to you? Or do we need to look at something else? Ask questions of course ... I am not saying that the cause is the above ... rather I am making a first suggestion.

Hope this helps
Michael

And just to round it off ... here is the original text I read at high school by the very brilliant late Eric Twiname. Any of his books are brilliant.

Start to Win: The Classic Text - Eric Twiname, Ben Ainslie, Bryan Willis - Google Books

Thank you Michael,

I think there is some misunderstanding...

I know my level of fitness is not good, but I will not be able to much to improve it.
Especially as regards the strength and endurance of abdominal muscles and knees.
So I think it will be easier for me to pull bottom over the side than to hang on the abdominal muscles. The same applies to sitting on the bench instead of kneeling ...

Or ... sell BETH and buy, or build another boat, better for the old fart

Originally Posted by robhosailor

Thank you Michael,

I think there is some misunderstanding...

I know my level of fitness is not good, but I will not be able to much to improve it.
Especially as regards the strength and endurance of abdominal muscles and knees.
So I think it will be easier for me to pull bottom over the side than to hang on the abdominal muscles. The same applies to sitting on the bench instead of kneeling ...

Or ... sell BETH and buy, or build another boat, better for the old fart

Hi Rob

Mik was being instructive on sailing technique rather than using weight to manage the boat in high winds. What he says is that good sailing technique can overcome the need for a sliding seat.

He is a good teacher and has mentioned some quite advanced boat handing that will help you when sailing your Beth. However, I suspect a lot of it is being lost in translation. Are there any good books in Polish that discuss advanced sailing techniques?

Originally Posted by woodeneye

Are there any good books in Polish that discuss advanced sailing techniques?

Hi Bruce,
Yes they are, and we are few of word's champions in Olimpic class (Kusznierewicz on Finn for example) too.

This is my personal question - for sitting on bench no kneel for example - look there:

Me running downwind in moderate condition:


And look at another sailing canoe and her transversal bench:


with transversal benches they can comfortable sail in light conditions and downwind in light and moderate conditions:


For my needs sliding seat is a transversal bench with posibilities for move my bottom out of the side like this:


In my opinion - This way the seat is more comfortable (ergonomic) than gotta hang on abdominal muscles in long time - like this:


OK, I can start today to train squat, kneel and sit-ups, but the results will be the end of the navigation season, or not at all.

I could be wrong, but I want to try a new way.

Unfortunately I have never sailed a Beth, but I can see your point, and the source of some pain. When sailing downwind (running), have you tried sitting on the edge of the side deck and healing the boat to windward slightly? This might feel unnatural for a while, but you will soon get used to it and find the boat's limits. (The limit is the point just before you capsize to windward )

I feel the cockpit coaming might be preventing you from sailing the boat in a more natural way, that is sitting on the deck at all times. If it was my boat I think I would plane off the coaming and wear hiking pants. Hiking pants have gel filled knee pads and battens for the back of your thighs. The stiff battens make hiking quite a bit easier and allow you to increase the righting moment by getting more of your body mass outboard. The pants with built in battens are best as the the ones with separate inserts move around too much. Hiking pants must be tighter than a normal wetsuit so that the pads stay where you need them, on the backs of the thighs. They don't work if they end up on top of your thighs!

Originally Posted by woodeneye

Unfortunately I have never sailed a Beth, but I can see your point, and the source of some pain. When sailing downwind (running), have you tried sitting on the edge of the side deck and healing the boat to windward slightly? This might feel unnatural for a while, but you will soon get used to it and find the boat's limits. (The limit is the point just before you capsize to windward )

Bruce,
She is really brilliant. But she is a boat not for poor athletic people - I think.

She (as other sailing canoes as well) has low limit of stability. Especially at low speed, so often you can not do so, as you say. I paddled a few times with no wind and try to position my bottom on the edge of the coaming caused the dynamic too much heel to "windward", that is: to me.
This sometimes occurs wave action, which reduces the stability. It requires sitting (kneel) in diametrically with possibility of quick swing of to the side or more. Mainly in terms of short and steep waves, and this provoked by motorboats.

Originally Posted by woodeneye

I feel the cockpit coaming might be preventing you from sailing the boat in a more natural way, that is sitting on the deck at all times. If it was my boat I think I would plane off the coaming and wear hiking pants.

Hiking pants and knee protectors can be a really good idea, but they dealt with only part of the problem - for example, they do not liquidate static tension of the muscles

Thank you for all.

It seems to me that you could very easily experiment by just clamping a board in place and seeing how it works. It sounds like you're not really looking for more righting moment, just easier righting moment. In that case the mast strength shouldn't be an issue since you'll only need a very short sliding seat.

Maybe something like the attached drawing would work to try the idea out? If you left clearance between the outside blocks and the coaming you could move it forward and aft to find a position that works.