Thread: Solo "Expedition" Sailboat

I think 'self rescuing' is just right actually but I understand that some people will want it to mean self righting.

For me 'self rescuing' means that I stand an excellent chance of getting the boat back up and sailing without assistance in any reasonable conditions. Ideally I want the boat not to blow away too fast if I lose touch, not to invert quickly (and be recoverable if it does), be easy to enter from the water and stable when bailing out and tidying up. In other words, the boat must be designed for the capsized condition as much as floating upright. It is not enough to bung in some buoyancy in anywhere and just declare the boat 'unsinkable' - not that you ever would MIK!

The youtube video of a GIS capsize shows that it is just about there - quite a bit of bailing to do but every other box seems to be ticked. I guess that the RAID41 will be even better, especially with the mizzen, raised floor and the crowned foredeck that seems to have crept in. The lower freeboard should help re-entry also.

I used to like sailing my Mirror without a rudder and I imagine that RAID41 will be quite responsive when sailed this way. It just seems a bit perverted to give up a rudder altogether though - they do work so well!

MIK, your comment on the openboat forum about swept forward daggerboards set me thinking. I reckon that Beth might benefit from such set-up. You said that Beth was, in part, an experiment in how small a rudder could be but that it is quite easy to stall it when sheeting on the mizzen. If you could shift the CE aft by pulling board up it might really help, especially reaching and downwind in heavy air? There would be an ergonomic advantage too - pulling the board out as you approach the beach would be an 'up and back' tug instead of having to move way forward and drawing it up vertically. Like you, I wouldn't depend on it kicking up by itself!

Come to think of it it could also be an advantage on RAID41 - the board would pull out further aft of the dodger, which could then be extended a bit.

Chris

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Howdy Brian,

(ooops ... just revealed my secret .. won't be able to show off to Ubeaut's SA squadron! Hmm maybe we can ALL do it!)

MIK

When Teal gets off the operating table....
Already half-way there.
I don't need to lift the centreboard to have too little board in the water !

Remind me to remind YOU to give it a go next time.
Actually, I used to be able to do this with a canadian I set up to sail (very crudely).
Fluked the balance between twin leg o' mutton & the lee-board to a whisker.
Lean forward to bear up, lean aft to bear away.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

A CANVAS Dodger. I hadn't even considered it! OK ... Why not ... I did imagine how a light ply varnished one would look.

MIK

Hi Mik,
A folding canvas dodger would make it easier to reef on the run but bright ply would look great. Hmm...reefing....looks ah decisions.

Speaking of easy reefing I was moseying around Duckworks and came across the Hoyt Rig here http://www.garryhoyt.com/id32.html
I'm sure you have spied it before.
While it seems a little complicated and I worry about the strength and cost required for the struts it sure is an interesting concept and makes for a nice sail shape.
What are your thoughts about incorporating the rig idea but perhaps minus the struts.
Yeah I know looks like I need to make some more spars and sails to experiment with.

Mike

On other forums I have been somewhat restrained about the "Hoyt" rig.

On my own forum I will say it directly ... I really don't like it. The main purpose is to get a patentable idea and the genesis of the rig is to appeal to peoples perceptions of problems and to try to appeal to their prejudices.

The mast on a balance lug makes very little difference whether it is in contact with the sail or not. Forget the offset his rig offers, the bits for it are hugely expensive weldments ... a standard balance lug uses two bits of string worth $4 to do the same job

He touts "Square Top" as some measure of efficiency ... the rig is SQUARE .... not "square top".

The luff and leach running on wires will mean the sail simply bags out as gusts hit.

The wires will also mean the throat and head get closer together for more "Bag" as the sail is reefed because of sag. To reef you have to adjust all four corners of the sail which are adjustable independently.

That is enough for now.

For those who don't know ... Hoyt is a sailor of the first order and also was one of the people responsible for the reinvention and repopularisation of the stayless rig, particularly for larger boats.

Every few years he comes up with something new ... sometimes it can be quite interesting.

Best wishes
Michael

As stated on another thread, I am hoping to make my sails for Trim. I had been wondering about windsurfing type sleeves for the sails and now looks a good time to ask.

If the boom and lug spars are made and the bend is known could the sails be made with sleeves for the boom and lug yard. The halyard fixes in one place so would only need one small opening in the sleeve and the boom would need just two, one for a kicker and one for the main sheet. Perhaps a loose foot would be even simpler, and allows great adjustment?

It would be very neat and aerodynamically clean.

Possibly better performance?

Easier to make?

Very difficult to adjust? Guess would have the same outhaul tie offs so perhaps no different.

I noticed at the show that Swallow boats have sleeved sails on their mizzen mast and gunter top spar. For RAID41 the mizzen could have no halyard, fit as per Laser sail, be just rolled up round the mizzen mast when not in use and stored rolled round the mast. Keeps the mizzen sail out of the way when at anchor as well.

No problem at all if this a bad idea, just have been meaning to ask.

Brian

I think it is well worth considering for the yard... though there might be a fair bit of wear on the sail where it is squeezed between the mast and the yard.

Rather go with a loose footed main ... because ... well ... your scow pics have converted me!!!

MIK

Talking of loose footed mains, here is a pic of the loose footed main I sail below on Thursday evenings - you know the kind of thing - one hour round the cans racing and 2 hours talking about it in the bar!



It is the best mainsail I have ever sailed under and the thing is, it was designed and made by the same small local family sailmakers, Sanders Sails, as the lug sails we all race with round here.

By the way, I am the lump sitting on the windward rail. Don't think we are rich or anything racing a small yacht. She was bought on ebay for less than the cost of one of those spinnakers you can see in the background, and yes they are in the same class, all much bigger and quite a way behind us! We are well disliked, known as the eBay boat! The design is a Dehler Sprinta Sport, and a great little boat she is.

The point is for RAID41, I have been wondering how I can go to Pete Sanders and explain I want him to design a suit of sails for a new Class of cruising dinghy, but the boats will be scattered all over the world. So could he sell us a design, or a panel layout, or a sail kit or a complete set of sails? All at a price we can afford.

Brian

Howdy Brian,

I don't know if it will be worth his effort. Certainly if he builds sails for your boat and they are at a reasonable price then I am really happy to direct UK sail purchases to him ... or any others that want to shop from that area. It is hard enough to find a sailmaker who really understands trad boat sails .. so I for one .. am very glad to know about him!

I think I will draw up some polytarp sails for the boat as well. I think the RAID41 represents a bit of a crossover point though ... she is nice enough to deserve good sails, but also, is derived from PDRacer technology so a good set of polytarp sails are worth considering too - particularly as we know how to design good ones!

I think I would be a bit torn about which way to go if I was building one.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

Could we possibly find a clever compromise between the two choices, since one choice is slightly lower tech than might suit and the other too dear for the design.

I can buy locally through an eBay seller, sail cloth at a very cheap price, £3.25 a sq metre. So the cloth cost will be very low.

So a polytarp style with low cost good low cost cloth remnants? I have a nice shape developed in Sailcut CAD, just struggling to share it.

It feels like there is a possible solution to be teased out.

Brian

It might be really useful if everyone who is thinking of building a RAID41 could indicate in a poll, what they would probably go for if they were about to sort out some sails for her.

A - buy "proper" sails from local sailmaker, cost about 70% of all materials for boat itself.

B - make dacron sails if design and instruction available, from local materials

C - buy a Sailrite kit and sew up

D - buy made up Sailrite sails

E - make a Polytarp set with instruction from MIK.

If a very clear favourite came out that could be the class norm?

Brian

Brian,
There is I think another option.

F. Sailmaker made polytarp

I have had a sail made by a local sailmaker out of a quality polytarp material for my PDR. The result is far beyond my abilities right down to a proper luff tape so even though the cost A$230 was considerably more than my original budget for the boat I think it is worth it. I understand a few builders have gone this way recently.

I don't know what the cost for dacron would be perhaps Mik can provide a guide but for the Oz PD poly is the material specified in the rules to ensure costs do not get out of control.

BTW now I have the Sailmaker's Apprentice book I am keen to try a seamed dacron sail after some practice on poly of course and assuming I can find the time

So in answer to your question I would probaly go for F. in the first instance.

Mike

I'm an E.
Can't justify the cost of a "proper" sail when an OzPDR-style sail is functional.
Different story if I were racing it. But I isn't planning to race, so don't need the
competitive edge. Yet.
cheers
Alan J

Thanks so far, this will be very useful.

Can I add

G - "polytarp" style, MIK design, using dacron offcuts. At £3.25 sq m even
if I used 10m it would only be £32.50 for material.

I have spent some time with Sailcut4 and although unable to output a file I can post here, I have managed to print a sail drawing, all the data file and also the full panel xy co-ordinates for all 5 panels of the trial design. Quite encouraging really, the sail looks good and can be rotated around both vertical and horizontal axis.

I think I would go for option A - sails from a local sailmaker. I must admit that I had never thought of RAID41 as a cheap boat, just my ideal cruising dinghy with a bit of zip. The cheap hull construction is just be a nice bonus.

MIK, when the plans are available and I have got hold of them (from Seawing presumably) would you have any objections to a kit of cut parts being prepared by a company like Jordan Boats here in the UK? I see that they have just done a GIS.

Chris