Thread: Son of Goat project

Originally Posted by callsign222

You need a license to sail a boat? Weird.

In Poland we needs a sailing licence for boats over 7,5 m lenght of hull and motor over 15 kW. I have of it for inland waters. We faiting for total liberation - similar as in UK, Sweden or France etc. as like - no obligatory licences but certifications of competences of one's own accord.
(Years ago we needed a sailing licences for smaller boats and sailing surfaces and motors - but it was a part of totalitarian communist's system)

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Howdy

I must admit that I don't like sloop rigs much any more - the way that jib flops around a third of the time unless you have a whisker pole just looks wrong compared to a yawl where everything works without any blanketing at all (if you know the trick of sailing downwind)

Also all the complication you need to add to a jib to make sure it works really well on all points of sail - barber haulers and at least one track or a substitute method. Fundamentally it is not a very efficient sail and is made efficient by such adjustments.

Once there is a commitment to a certain level of cost jibs are quite powerful and nice on most points of sail, but I prefer not to make that commitment.

The staying, or rather, the feeding of staying loads into a hull without side decks can add a lot of complication beyond the simple measures for an unstayed mast.

Best wishes
Michael

Hi Guy's

I didn't follow the forum for a while, since I have been busy looking, buying and now preparing my new GRP Classic Old Vic...............but :
I totally support the idea of a 12ft SoG.........but keep it as simple and inexpensive as GIS !!!
I agree with Joost, it should be a simple skiff with minimal construction, open interior plan and lug-rig ( much like a mini GIS )
Selfmade wooden spars ( or off-the-shelf aluminium tubes, if you want ) and a single main are the only way to keep costs at a low level ( buying a good sail is the main investment you have to make, rest is DIY made). Extra sails, spars a.s.o could add some performance, but will certainly add costs and will not help inexperienced builders to make their choice.
MIK has proven to be able to make a VERY GOOD LOOKING design (GIS) with good performance with a very simple construction and rig.....that why it could become a new Classic! ......any unexperienced fool with just a little skills could make this nice boat without getting bankrupt........that's the succes-formula!. It would be great if MIK could do something similar in a 12ft version.

It's a rainy day........so I finally can start working on my GIS for a while...........

Haha,

Remember Watermaat, I am looking forward to the pic of the three goats sailing with a windmill in the background! If there are tulips in the shot that would be worth extra points!

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by Watermaat

( or off-the-shelf aluminium tubes, if you want )

My son and I have been looking at spar costs, and here in the UK we have found a supplier of 6082 T6 2" OD x 0.064 wall for mast and boom, and 6082 T6 1.5" OD x 0.064 wall for the yard, which costs half what Edward has paid for just the wood for his spars for a 12' dinghy, never mind the varnish and work involved.

I guess there would be some prejudice against alloy spars but in reality all the south coast Scow sailors, and there are hundreds of them, much prefer alloy spars for there lack of maintenance needs and better performance.

Being cheaper as well, and saving a huge amount of worry and work for a beginner, has to make it worth looking at? How many more new builders would give it a go if they knew an easy lower cost spar solution was available. It's very easy to use plain tubes with the lug rig.

Brian

SoG would be great if it used the OZ PDR mast, spars, sail, rudder and center board. A perfect upgrade for someone who wants more after having built and "mastered" sailing the PDR....

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Haha,

Remember Watermaat, I am looking forward to the pic of the three goats sailing with a windmill in the background! If there are tulips in the shot that would be worth extra points!

Best wishes
Michael

Hi MIK,
Got the message............Be shure there will be "another Dutch GIS " sailing around this summer. I have just been working on the rudder and that's almost finished........."nice" to have one of those rainy days.

Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

My son and I have been looking at spar costs, and here in the UK we have found a supplier of 6082 T6 2" OD x 0.064 wall for mast and boom, and 6082 T6 1.5" OD x 0.064 wall for the yard, which costs half what Edward has paid for just the wood for his spars for a 12' dinghy, never mind the varnish and work involved.

I guess there would be some prejudice against alloy spars but in reality all the south coast Scow sailors, and there are hundreds of them, much prefer alloy spars for there lack of maintenance needs and better performance.

Being cheaper as well, and saving a huge amount of worry and work for a beginner, has to make it worth looking at? How many more new builders would give it a go if they knew an easy lower cost spar solution was available. It's very easy to use plain tubes with the lug rig.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I agree using alloy tube spars would make it much easier to finish a DIY design. I am not shure if performance would be improved, but it's shure a lot of work to find the right wood and make those wooden spars. I was initially looking for an alloy ( or even GRP ) tapered flagpole for a mast and straight tubes for yard and boom and prices were less than wooden spars if you pick standard sizes and keep away from "marine" chandlers.
Even Kevlar or Carbon tubes are available for spars, if you look at ( second-hand) windsurf masts.
I decided to make the original wooden spars since I had the time and wanted to make a nice hollow mast. I also found a nice quality fir for a low price that could do the job ( future will tell if that has been a good choice.........but it looks pretty good now ).
If I had been less experienced and had been more keen to get a boat launched asap; I certainly would have prefered alloy tube spars.

Kevlar would be a bad choice for spars. It doesn't have a good compressive strength. Not any better than Aero grade glassfibre (S-glass)

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Kevlar would be a bad choice for spars. It doesn't have a good compressive strength. Not any better than Aero grade glassfibre (S-glass)

You are probably right, I was just refering to inexpensive glas-kevlar masts they used on some 80-ies windsurf rigs. Stiffer than glas-only masts in those days.
Anyway; my main message is that using off-the-shelf tubing or widely available second-hand stuff would be a benefit for those who do not want to spend time ( or do not have the experience and skills ) on building spars. If you look well you can find solutions for even less money than wood-epoxy for the spars.
Especially a 12ft SOG will probably atract more beginners and younger sailers with less experience. They still could build nice looking wooden spars at a later stage ? I realize that GIS also started with a used laser-rig option, not a bad idea?

best regards
Ralph

Howdy Ralph,

Making wood spars is possibly one of the most fun things about building boats ... or at least I find it is!

it is a bit like the foils ... nobody believes they can do a nice job, but by the time they follow the instructions through then they are completely surprised.

The problem with alternatives is finding something in aluminium or a manufactured solution that is right. The usual problem is that there is nothing really in the right range - everything is either much to stiff or much too flexible and the builder, not knowing which one is best feels that they have to choose one or the other.

There are just too many differences between the extrusions available in many different countries for me to say much useful in terms of guidance. And the lack of taper is a concern too.

Building the wooden spars is much more predictable in many ways.

MIK

Originally Posted by Coucal

The idea of camping the more-sedate-version SoG is pretty interesting. Can you do that easily in a 12'er without getting tangled in the bulkheads/frames?
Jack

Piccup Squared is a dead simple 11' square bowed flattie for sheltered waters from Jim Michalak that has a 6.5' x 3.0' unobstructed sleep spot between the watertight bow and stern storage chambers.






Jim estimates that with ordinary 1/4" lumberyard exterior plywood the weight should come in at around 90 pounds. It has a handy shape for roof racks, and even at that weight it might be realistic to load and unload it singlehanded.

That, to me, is a significant advantage. As Jim advises in his book, if roof racking your 12' boat is a struggle, you're either going to get a trailer for it, or you're going to stop using it. And once you accept a trailer, you might as well go to a 15' boat, which can still be sailed and rescued singlehanded, but which is a lot more versatile boat for a little more investment in time and materials.

Piccup Squared isn't advertised as a stellar performer, and it also has other drawbacks. But easy transport (no trailer) and the ability to sleep (somewhat) comfortably aboard are quite attractive features in a tiny 12' cruiser.

Nothing with a square bow should probably be called "Son of Goat", but that might also be something to consider ...

Grant

Howdy,

More appropriate to the Goose Project if I go that way after the Son of Goat.

The Son of Goat will have a very strong GIS flavour.

MIK

Has anyone considered trying bamboo for the mast and other spars on boats of this size (SoG, PDR, PGD, Beth) At a guess a 70mm dia bamboo pole would be well stiff enough for a mast and quite light. Question of course would be availability and consistency of quality.

Ian

Hi Ian,

Bamboo is not strong enough and also you can't rely on it bending the right amount to match the sails to give good performance.

It can be strong enough for booms and yards, but is rarely strong enough to handle mast loads on a boat with any amount of real performance. The forces on the mast are quite severe. For example the little PDR uses a 62mm square mast with a 12mm wall. I don't think that you would be able to find a 12mm wall piece of bamboo! And that is for one person sailing a 4ft wide boat hard. The Goat's wooden masts are stressed for three people hiking out on a 5 1/2ft wide boat. Bamboo doesn't even come close to being strong enough - from memory Giant Bamboo has a diameter about 75mm with a wall thickness about 4 or 5 mm. On the same diameter the Goat mast is 12mm thick.

In terms of performance you want the curve of the spars to match the curve of the edge of the sail to get the best performance. While it might be possible to get some bamboo spars and make a sail to suit the bends there will be a real difficulty in finding a replacement that works quite as well should you break something.

With wood you can specify a taper which allows the spars to have a repeatable geometry of bend even if the overall bend distance might be a little different from spar to spar for the same load.

I think bamboo belongs in quite small boats where efficiency is not particularly sought after.

Best wishes
Michael