Thread: Son of Goat project

Listen to the Man, and you will benefit in the long run-- trust me, I have yet to go wrong when Mik pressured me into a certain direction.

So I rescind my previous comments about it being a good idea... and I downgrade it to a mediocre idea.

Hi Mik,

I am in Sydney. I have emailed you a few times in regards to the OzR MkII instructions. Rather than hijack this thread too much further I'll take some photos of my boat on the weekend and post in a new thread.

Goodpoints in relation to quick and dirty methods. Maybe I will make a quick PDR so I can race my one against. I really just want to test out some quick building methods. But I am really looking forward to the SoG, especially a performance variant.

If you are thinlomg pf a second PDR you could cobble together a Mk3 oz - much simpler.

Cobble together because there are no real plans, but enough to work it out.

MIK

Mik,
Very excited to find this thread! I have spent the past few months researching your designs for my first wooden boat build. I've been restoring/sailing an old Laser and a 15ft Oday dinghy and now have a hankering to build my own. Initially smitten with the GIS, I have also considered Beth since she is such a performance boat. I was actually searching to see if the new MSD row boat design had any consideration for sail plans. I particularly like the rower's flared sides and sleek lines and wondered how the hull would perform under sail.

Now to find that there is a 12 GIS under design is very exciting. My limited garage space has kept me from diving into a GIS and/or MSD rower build as they are both over 15ft. However a 12ft SoG would piggy back nicely on my 14ft Laser and trailer thus taking up no additional garage space, and with the pair I could invite a friend (or daughter) along and both sailors could have a single-hander to enjoy. One would just look classier than the other . Love the potential high-aspect sail for the SoG shown earlier on the thread. I especially appreciate all your time spent making sure the build process is efficient and effective for even a first time builder.

Really hoping the SoG design makes it to market.

Thanks,
Shaun

Hi Boatmik and All,

I consider to build another boat for inland and coastal singlehanded trips with possibilities of singlehanded beaching and retrieving - the Son of Goat project is really interesting for me!



I'm interested in yawl version also (for example 12 ft Goose has a yawl version) - it's probably not rational, but I like yawl rig, and I think it has some specific advantages, but it's not very critical for me - I prefer simple and easy to build, high performance and light boat.

What do you thinking about?

Originally Posted by robhosailor

What do you thinking about?

OK! I know - A discussion about not existing boat design is really difficult.

Originally Posted by robhosailor

OK! I know - A discussion about not existing boat design is really difficult.

I'm interested too Rob. I'm also thinking that this boat might suit the various Laser rigs, ie. full rig, radial and 4.7. These rigs can often be purchased second hand for quite cheap, so it would give another option for builders to get onto the water quickly.

We just need to be patient as our designer has a lot on his plate at the moment

Originally Posted by robhosailor

Hi Boatmik and All,

I consider to build another boat for inland and coastal singlehanded trips with possibilities of singlehanded beaching and retrieving - the Son of Goat project is really interesting for me!



I'm interested in yawl version also (for example 12 ft Goose has a yawl version) - it's probably not rational, but I like yawl rig, and I think it has some specific advantages, but it's not very critical for me - I prefer simple and easy to build, high performance and light boat.

What do you thinking about?

Howdy Robert,

Yawls don't really work well with shorter boats, particularly when they can use larger sails because they have reasonable stability.

Beth works as a yawl because of her length and that the beam means the stability is not great so the sails are quite small. This combines to give you enough space to do a yawl.

This is not to say that you cannot do a yawl in this size, but that the advantages start to reduce the non yawl advantages of the boat.

Two examples are the cost - it adds quite a bit to a 12ft boat. The other example is it pushes the masts right out to the ends of the boat. Combined with the pointy bow and modest transom width can add a lot to the boat pitching more in waves - I don't know how much worse it would be - but length and having the spars some distance from the bow and stern do help reduce it.

Again - I am not saying "no" but just thinking through it in the way I do before doing any new design.

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by woodeneye

I'm interested too Rob. I'm also thinking that this boat might suit the various Laser rigs, ie. full rig, radial and 4.7. These rigs can often be purchased second hand for quite cheap, so it would give another option for builders to get onto the water quickly.

We just need to be patient as our designer has a lot on his plate at the moment

Howdy,

Just as an update as to where I am. This will be the next boat off the line, however a number of things have slowed up the start.

One is the rise and rise of the OZ dollar - most of my business comes from overseas - since last year I have seen a $500 cheque in US dollars go from $850 to $480 in OZ dollars. Also the implosion of the puddleducks at the beginning of the year - now on the mend - cut into my best selling plan - a great introduction to the quality of my plans that led to lots of sales for the more expensive plans.

So my focus at the moment is to increase plan sales - a new plan alone might increase sales by 5% if it hits the right tone with the consumer. But if I can increase the sales of all the plans by 5 or more percent that will be more helpful. I have a number of strategies for (hopefully) pulling that off underway.

Despite focussing on that I/we did get three new plans last year. The Quick Canoe, the Quick Canoe Electric for trolling motors and my half of the Ocean Explorer microcruising sailboat.

The current design work is to finish the instruction pack for building the legal puddleduck kit that is being produced in Texas by J.O. Woodworks. It is a bit new for me working out a boat in collaboration with someone else - trying to match our ideas for putting it together and matching drawings, text and pictures to our intentions. Its also been confused by the PDR rules which have enshrined a very unfair (non smooth) bottom shape - this means the ply doesn't sit flat on the bottom - we were trying to use the duct tape and fillet method that came out of the over complicated RAID41 process, but the ply just won't sit down nicely with the lower forces the duct tape develops.

It's been a good process, but more complicated with my normal "build in my head the best way and write every step" method.

So ... delay delay, but hopefully not too far away.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Two examples are the cost - it adds quite a bit to a 12ft boat. The other example is it pushes the masts right out to the ends of the boat. Combined with the pointy bow and modest transom width can add a lot to the boat pitching more in waves - I don't know how much worse it would be - but length and having the spars some distance from the bow and stern do help reduce it.

Best wishes
Michael

Since I have built the first GIS Yawl and have sailed her over 545 miles is 9 months, my vote is for a simple lug rigged Son of Goat. I can testify that Mik is correct about moving the mast towards the pointy bow. Just moving the mast about 7 inches forward on my GIS creates an interesting situation when trying to reef. I have to nudge myself (210lbs worth) just a little bit further up into that pointy bow when reefing while in yawl configuration. Its getting the new tack tied down that is the hardest. There is less room to work and the boat gets a little more tippy. It's not that tippy just look at my son napping on the front deck. I will have to practice reefing in a good hard blow with big waves, but that will be when the water warms up and we get our summer sea breeze.

Since I cruise, my yawl works great. A fun little boat, like the SoG should be easy to build, light, easy on the pocket book, easy to sail and easy to rig.

Originally Posted by john goodman

I will have to practice reefing in a good hard blow with big waves, but that will be when the water warms up and we get our summer sea breeze.

Hi John

The thought of reefing in big waves is pretty scary. I have recently sailed solo on an inland lake with the wind gusting up to 30m knots with 1 metre waves. Such waves would not faze the average dinghy sailor, but trying to reef in such conditions with the boat rolling and being smacked around is entirely another matter. Certainly practice is required!

The first thing I would do is ensure that the sail can be lowered from the skipper's position so that you don't need to go forward in a bucking boat.

I was lucky too that I capsized close to the clubhouse shore so that I was able to sail to the beach and bail there. A GIS full of water in such wind and waves (and a broken boom) was quite a challenge and added to the learning curve. It was impossible to bail out the boat in those conditions with the sail up, so a modification that allows the sail to be lowered from the skipper's position would help enormously for both bailing and reefing.

Self bailers are also on my list .

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Yawls don't really work well with shorter boats, particularly when they can use larger sails because they have reasonable stability.

Beth works as a yawl because of her length and that the beam means the stability is not great so the sails are quite small. This combines to give you enough space to do a yawl.

This is not to say that you cannot do a yawl in this size, but that the advantages start to reduce the non yawl advantages of the boat.

Two examples are the cost - it adds quite a bit to a 12ft boat. The other example is it pushes the masts right out to the ends of the boat. Combined with the pointy bow and modest transom width can add a lot to the boat pitching more in waves - I don't know how much worse it would be - but length and having the spars some distance from the bow and stern do help reduce it.

Again - I am not saying "no" but just thinking through it in the way I do before doing any new design.

Thank you Michael!
Exactly - you are quite right (and John is right too). Yawl version is not essential for me and I've wrote previously:

it's probably not rational, but I like yawl rig, and I think it has some specific advantages, but it's not very critical for me - I prefer simple and easy to build, high performance and light boat.

About additional cost: It's real, but additional spars (mizzen mast and sprit boom) are "thin sticks" only, mizzen sail circa 2 square metres is and few additional ropes... - real, but not too big.

I like a yawl version just for lower centre of effort which is essential for small boat coastal cruising.

However, for simplicity I'm choosing the cat version. And... quick - slabreefing system .

JOHN G
Hi John, have you tried Your main mast in the original aft position with the mizzen rigged?
I am wondering if the full seven inch relocation has been necessary in practice?
Wayne Poulsen
Fremantle West Australia

Brilliant question!

If that's only your second post here you are VERY welcome to hang round here Wayne!

MIK