Thread: Avid Upgrade

Hey,
I'd been keen on an update on your machine now that you've had it up and running for a while.
I recently almost bought a 2nd hand Multicam but balked when bidding on Grays got ridiculous, so made the trip to Multicam head office to get a demo on their machines. They are beasts! BUT they have only 120mm clearance for their standard models, and you can option them up to 250mm clearance, but the price ends up $100k plus. Holy crap! Also another sticking point for me was they have no vertical work holding capability (no CNC dovetails on those babies!)

So I'm back to Avid as a better solution (cheaper by far, vertical work holding, 4th axis without selling my firstborn). I'm still trawling endless threads about people who hate Mach 3/4 and get a Masso controller instead.
Now today I find threads where people are bagging Masso's as having too many bugs.

It doesn't seem to matter which combination they seem to have limitations/bugs that annoy users.

So......

now that you've been using yours for a while, can you give me your honest review of this machine/setup - the good, the bad, things you wish you'd have known before buying, what you'd change if you could start over....

I'm very happy with the AvidCNC. Sadly I don't get enough time to play with it.

Had a quick peak at Avid's website, and most things have gone up by about 15% since I bought, except the rotary, which is the same. It was an expensive bit of kit in the first place, so they may not have sold many.

Some of my buying decisions were influenced by the fact that it was coming from yankland, and it was cheaper to get things in one bundle rather than pay for shipping again later. I've barely used the rotary - if it was local, I'd have left it for a year or two while I got my head around the rest of the machine.

If you look long and hard enough, you'll find plenty of people unhappy with every software and hardware option. I haven't had any issues with Mach4. Remember that Avid has customised it significantly, so it's not comparable with a DIY user setting it up themselves. There shouldn't be an issue changing between Masso and Mach4, if you can find a masso plugin that will talk to the Warp9 ethernet smooth stepper (not sure if that exists as Warp9 seems to be designed for Mach).

I've just started playing around with customising Mach4, and it doesn't seem too difficult. It has a decent screen and script editor built in.

Things I'd do differently:

• I wouldn't bother with the 12" Z travel - not even sure why this is an option. Most stuff is nowhere near the std 8 inch height, and height is limited by the gantry - even if the Z axis can go up to the ceiling, it's no use if the gantry can't go aver that tall thing you're cutting.
• I'd have got the bits to convert to a full sheet size machine (8x4 or 8x5). I'd still have started with the 4x4 (or 4x5), but as soon as I have more space I'll want to be able to handle full sheets. Tiling, pins etc work, but it's another step of pain-in-the-but-tock, and another point to introduce errors and inaccuracy.
• I'd have gone for the table-top mounted rotary, rather than the recessed option. It's not a trivial exercise putting the recessed in and removing it, and if you leave it in it takes up a big chunk of cutting space. Even with a piece of spoilboard covering most of it when not in use, the chuck sits proud, and is just one more obstacle to smash your endmills on.
• Lastly, I'd think seriously about a cartridge type of spindle, rather than the ER collet. Avid have been muttering about an auto tool changer for some time, but it's not happening fast. I'm not a big fan of swapping in and out of the ER collets, and would probably wear the extra expense of something that will take a BT30 or TTS-type tool holder.

All minor things. It's a great machine - it's learning to drive it that takes the time.

Just had a look at Masso and see that it's a complete system, so not possible to swap at leisure. Looks interesting, and it's local, which is a +. I like their integrated touchscreen contoller.
Having said that, the software and electronic interfacing haven't been an issue, and additional purchases for me would be the parts to extend - so that would still need to come from yankland.

It'd be interesting to add up the Masso bits vs the MAch4 plug & play system Avid offers

Hi Bern,
thanks for the information.
Yes the Masso is all-in-one, and it appeals to me because primarily it does away with requiring a Windows PC to drive the CNC, and from what I'm reading, Windows updates play havoc with systems, so most people get theirs working and then forever disconnect from the internet.
If I go with the Masso, then I expect the end price to be similar as I save $$ on a windows PC, but have to spend $1k+ on the Masso, so no real savings there, but moving on, no issues with windows updates. However I then have to figure out all the electronics myself, and I reckon that'll take ~6months.


Re your other points - I haven't been able to figure the point of the 12" travel either, as larger pieces need to be recessed into the table to get under the gantry, and I can't see a scenario where you would do that, set the piece height say 50-100mm below gantry, and then need to reach down 8"+ down into the piece??
- I'm planning on their 5x5 foot option, but buying as 10x5 and storing the extra parts in case I move it in the shed to a different location and can set up the extra bed length then.
- I am toying with the idea of getting the extra wide x-gantry to allow for dual z-axis heads in the future. Thoughts??
- I'm thinking the same re rotary - buy now to save freight $$ later. I want the full bed for regular stuff, and only rotary on rare occasions. I'm toying with the idea of perhaps mounting it on gas struts under the table to rise up as required, but I foresee levelling to be the big sticking point there.
- I'm going for either this option for auto tool changing (S30 Turnkey Package for AVID CNC Machines | cncdepot)
or if not then the 8.7HP spindle. Either more power, or more flexibility. Which would you recommend?

Avid/Mach4 comes with a pre-install setup program that checks and disables all the windoze quirks that might upset your machine - including auto-updates. I manually update my windows regularly, and haven't had any problems. And this is running on an 8 year-old Intel NUC.

That CNCDepot package looks excellent - I'd definitely consider it over the standard Avid bundle if a 3HP spindle is going to be enough for you. The shipping will be another chunk of misery though. You'll want the S30C (24000 rpm) flavour. Worth asking them if they provide any of the extra code for Mach 4 to handle the ATC as this would save a huge amount of time and effort.

I'm not sure I could ever find a use for a 8.7HP spindle, but if you need it for whatever you're going to be cutting (masses of very hard wood and a BIG bit?).... And have the 3P power...

You'd definitely want the 5' wide flavour if you're thinking of a dual Z. I'm not sure how the structure of the machine (ali extrusion) would handle the extra weight while maintaining accuracy, so be sure to look into that. I guess a laser wouldn't be an issue, but another heavy motor of some sort..?

For a cheaper Chinese ATC alternative, Jianken seem to have a good rep for spindles. I had a brief look at their stuff. Seems to be all water-cooled but who knows what they will come up with. They're happy to customise, and happy to talk.
For local, BG Precision stock Teknomotor spindles (a bargain at $7K for a BT30 ATC ) - these are the spindles Felder offer as an upgrade on their baby machine, so likely to be very high quality. BG are good - I had some correspondence with them when looking at CNC's, and they were free and open with their advice, and were one of the few companies to follow up with me a few weeks after I'd initially spoken to them.

Note that I'm not an expert on CNC's, or possibly even well-informed! This is only stuff from my limited experience and use of the Avid-CNC, and the "research" I've pretended to do (turns out I like building and tinkering with the machines more than I enjoy using them!)

Re Z travel:

You need the height of your thickest workpiece plus the longest bit you want to use.

Example:
150mm thick workpiece
You want to cut full depth holes inside and all the way around the outside. Thus you need a >150mm long bit.
You have to get the bit up over the top of the work piece.
Thus you need a Z axis that goes up >=300mm from the spoilboard / table.

You could technically do it with a 150mm travel Z axis, mounted 150mm up. But that would be useless for thin work with small cutters.

You need to be able to reach your spoilboard / table with the shortest cutter you want to use (well you may choose to use vertical spacers - this can sometimes be a good choice)

Having a Z axis that can go up above the level of under side of the gantry is usually a very good idea. Otherwise you can never actually use the gantry clearance available and your gantry uprights are unnecessarily high (therefore less stiff). Usually the Z axis travel above the gantry plane does not cost you in stiffness.

Thanks for that- I hadn’t thought of the tool length