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  1. #1
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    Default Hammer vs Axiom vs ?

    I may have the opportunity to massage the figures and slip a CNC past the taxman...(and the ministeress of finance).

    I've had a chat to Felder about the Hammer HNC and it's variants, and wondered if more experienced CNC'ers had any thoughts. I don't think there are any Hammers in Aus yet (or at least very few), and there's not a lot out on the interwebs. (Yes, I've seen Marius' review).

    In brief, the hammer can be had as
    - a basic kit, add your own spindle and electronics etc. 43mm collar, possibly others (seems small).
    - supplied with a re-badged Mafell 1000W spindle - 3 variants = fixed speed ($400-ish), variable speed ($600ish), variable speed + quick change tool wotsit ($1000). You can retrofit these options to the basic kit.
    - A 2.2kw air-cooled spindle version. This is not retrofit-able. You have to specify it when ordering.

    All of the above come as 3 or optional 4 axis (add $400 for 4th axis).

    Arrives on a pallet, practically ready to go if you have the full hammer kit out, including electronics and software. Plug & pray.

    Mafell vary/quick change version with dust boots, tool height wotsit, and some bits is around $11000; the 2.2kW version is just shy of $13000.

    Cost wise, it's pretty close to the Axiom machines (which a number of Aussie places do, including Carbatec).

    Axiom AR4 pro+ is $12K - that's with a 2.2kW water-cooled spindle. Significantly, the AR4's work area is 812 x 990 x 153mm, compared to the hammer's 825 x 479 x 160mm. Weight - 120kg Axiom, vs 80kg Hammer.

    The 'baby' Axiom IR2-6 is $8000 for 610 x 915 x 100mm, but with a 800W spindle.

    So, without knowing too much about the wonders of CNC construction and operation, the machines seem reasonably comparable, with slightly less money for the Axiom, but with the benefit of a larger work bed and a water-cooled (presumably much quieter) spindle.

    Now, Felder/Hammer make you pay, but I have three of their machines, and they are all excellent. And customer service has always been similarly excellent. vs a complete unknown for Axiom.

    I think if the Hammer had a working area of at least 600mm width - so able to take half a standard sheet width-wise, it would be an easier decision. I could sell my parf guide and buy an extra screw for the Hammer!

    Usage. Mostly wood, some acrylic, but there's a fair bit I'd like to do with aluminium too.

    Any thoughts/opinions?

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  3. #2
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    the Hammer option might effectively be plug-and-play, but you will still need the software to control the spindle.
    Are you up to the learning curve / price of Solidworks or Fusion 360

    More than one user on here has a CNC but as far as I know most are happy to use downloaded cutting templates, few are setup to code objects from scratch.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  4. #3
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    I would think that an air cooled spindle on a CNC would get really old really quick because of the noise and have a shorter working life and duty cycle but I am only surmising on the latter. The noise level of a water cooled spindle is a lot lower.
    CHRIS

  5. #4
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    Default

    Good timing, i've been thinking about the 4 Axis Hammer version, at least i don't have to annoy my Felder agent for approx pricing.

    I'd be leaning towards the Hammer, as i've go three of them and a felder and they are great machines and the back up support is second to none.

    I can request a part and have it send from europe within a week if it isn't in stock, as for Axiom, that is an unknown for me.

    But the CNC area is an improvement over the hammer, i guess it depends on the stock you are using.

    Ideally a 1200mm x 600mm machining area would be ideal, if you are making templates or using MDF sheets.

    Edit:: I'd be seriously looking at the AR8 due to its machining area, if i could establish the quality of after sales support

    I wonder if Hammer has plans to introduce a larger CNC

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    I would think that an air cooled spindle on a CNC would get really old really quick because of the noise and have a shorter working life and duty cycle but I am only surmising on the latter. The noise level of a water cooled spindle is a lot lower.
    I reckon you're unlikely to hear much difference once you factor in the cutting noise at 24k rpm. The big boys (Biesse and Homag) offer air cooled spindles and those things are designed to run all day, every day.

    My preference is actually for air cooled, simply because there's one less potential failure point to worry about.

  7. #6
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    Can you buy one with at least an 8’x4’ table because I have a couple of jobs you can practice on with it.

  8. #7
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    I can drive fusion 360, although doing it for CNC will be new - but I don't think it'd be an issue.

    I asked about plans for a bigger CNC, but the answer is currently 'unknown' - which I suspect means no in the short term. I think they've barely got this one off the ground. They'll be dropping the 3-axis versions - not much needed to equip them for 4 axes, so that's going to become standard. Note that 4-axes just means it has the electronics to control 4 axes - you still need to add a 4th axis of your choice. Felder doesn't offer one yet, but presumably it's in the pipeline.

    Two comparison videos of unboxing/setup. Note that the Axiom stand, toolbox and hand controller are all (significantly costly) extras:

    Hammer: Hammer (R) HNC Portalfrase – Inbetriebnahme und Erste Schritte - YouTube

    Axiom AR6: Axiom AR4 Pro CNC Unboxing & Assembly - YouTube

  9. #8
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    Incidentally, in terms of accuracy of the Hammer, heres that Hornberger fellow milling bench dog holes with 100th of a mm variations - How to acheive perfect alignment and repeatability at the CNC router (with bench dogs) - YouTube

  10. #9
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    I picked up an Axiom for my school's workshop last year. I had limited experience with CNC machines but after a bunch of research, but it seemed good value for money. It's a tank of a machine. Runs for hours without issue and we've managed to do quite a few complex jobs on it, templates are a breeze and engraving is easy. I went through BGPrecision (I'm pretty sure they are the Carbatec supplier) and customer service has been great. A quick call or text gets help quickly - mostly for operator error.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    I asked about plans for a bigger CNC, but the answer is currently 'unknown' - which I suspect means no in the short term. I think they've barely got this one off the ground. They'll be dropping the 3-axis versions - not much needed to equip them for 4 axes, so that's going to become standard. Note that 4-axes just means it has the electronics to control 4 axes - you still need to add a 4th axis of your choice. Felder doesn't offer one yet, but presumably it's in the pipeline.
    it could well be any homebased woodworkers -- the primary market for the Hammer line of machines -- are being "encouraged" to look at the Felder options which, if I can read the specs correctly, provide CNC options that can handle material up to 10 ft x 5 ft.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    it could well be any homebased woodworkers -- the primary market for the Hammer line of machines -- are being "encouraged" to look at the Felder options which, if I can read the specs correctly, provide CNC options that can handle material up to 10 ft x 5 ft.
    I’m not sure about that. I don’t think there are any Felder branded CNC’s. They’re all Format4 which means mortgage your wife and sell a kidney. 10+kW spindles and automated everything. The hammer appears to be the only machine that is almost in reach of the home woodworker - but still pricy!

  13. #12
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    I have recently acquired an Australian machine built in melbourne, Bluecarve Turbo which runs ball screws. I bought a 1500x1000 (1300 x 800 cut size) but they also supply a 1500x1500 machine. It can come with a spindle but in my case as I am new to CNC, I started with a Router but the machine can be upgraded to a spindle or purchased with a water cooled spindle.

    In terms of accuracy, happy to cut you a small MFT table and you check it for yourself. It is in a different league to the majors, but at around $4-$5K (from memory), it was good value and perfect for what I was after.

    Happy to answer any questions or PM me if you want to see it.

    Cheers
    Nick

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    it could well be any homebased woodworkers -- the primary market for the Hammer line of machines -- are being "encouraged" to look at the Felder options
    I’m not sure about that. I don’t think there are any Felder branded CNC’s. They’re all Format4 which means mortgage your wife and sell a kidney. 10+kW spindles and automated everything. The hammer appears to be the only machine that is almost in reach of the home woodworker - but still pricy!
    I was equating Felder with the Format4 line

    Besides, I thought the Tax man was "buying" the CNC for you via the Government's 100% "instant" business investment write-off.

    or that's what I interpreted from your initial post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    I may have the opportunity to massage the figures and slip a CNC past the taxman...(and the ministeress of finance).
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  15. #14
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    For a moment you gave me hope there might be something between the Hammer 'pricey' and Format4 'Outrageous', but my spirit was soon crushed.

    The taxman will buy me something smallish, but I'd have difficulty convincing him that a machine costing more than the GDP of a small country to make some acrylic widgets was a genuine need!

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    For a moment you gave me hope there might be something between the Hammer 'pricey' and Format4 'Outrageous', but my spirit was soon crushed.
    How about this? 4' x 4' with a vacuum table Vintage 2019 Nxt Gen CNC CNC Router 1212 Flatbed Nesting CNC in Penrith, NSW

    ER11 spindle is a bit limiting (6mm max), but I'm sure that could be swapped out for an ER20

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