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  1. #16
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    Feb 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    For a moment you gave me hope there might be something between the Hammer 'pricey' and Format4 'Outrageous', but my spirit was soon crushed.

    The taxman will buy me something smallish, but I'd have difficulty convincing him that a machine costing more than the GDP of a small country to make some acrylic widgets was a genuine need!
    Just write a sort of semi convincing business plan.

    30+ years ago, I wrote off a custom bicycle, helmet and complete cycle outfit in one year on the basis that equipping myself it was a requirement of my then job.


    The taxman doesn't need to be TOLD that your intention is to only "make some small acrylic widgets". Draft a business plan that in effect says:
    • you intend to make custom acrylic shapes up to nnn cm x yyy cm (make sure that nnn x yyy will fit on the Format4 machine you buy), You don't have to actually make more than a single prototype of a large snowflake;
    • that you will be using fully commercial software to do so (that covers the taxman accepting you writing off of at least one full cost software license, more if your existing Felder / Hammer gear supports CNC machining);
    • that you will be selling the shapes commercially through your own website, plus Etsy, Amazon -- don't forget to claim development of the website as an investment;
    • include in your 100% instant write off "proper" dust collection;
    • etc.


    At the end of the day, your business might be making acrylic templates that others can use with a router to make snowmen, reindeer and Santa sleighs from full sized sheets of ply -- to mention just three of the shapes other forumites have requested help with making in the past.



    And, no I'm not a business plan consultant, but I've spent enough time with them and tax agents to know what can be said ...
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

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  3. #17
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    Nov 2018
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    Newcastle
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    Format4 CNC starts at a mere $100,000. I’ve ordered 3 as you can never have enough

    And I’ve confirmed that there are currently no plans to build a bigger Hammer HNC.

    Bit more research on the Axiom v Hammer -
    - Axiom has ball screws vs Hammer lead screws;
    - Hammer’s 2.2kW spindle appears to be a Tekno with ceramic bearings - very high-end beast. ER25 collet (Axiom is ER20); And Felder/Hammer approve/certify their machine for milling non-ferrous metals.
    - Axiom driven by UCCNC, Hammer is EdingCNC. EdingCNC has a very nice wireless hand controller, but it’s 350 euro (the Axiom’s hand controller is around AU$350).
    -Major difference is in size. Hammer is 80kg, and almost a desktop machine - with correspondingly smaller work surface. The AR6 is 160Kg!

    Axiom comes with tool sensor and ½ and ¼ inch collets. In the usual Felder way, these are all extras.

    Both companies (BG Precision for the Axiom) have been responsive and helpful.

    Interestingly, Axiom lists Felder as a partner/affiliate on their US website. I wonder how many axioms Felder pulled apart...!

  4. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Mornington Peninsula
    Posts
    70

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    Ian - just to make it clear, when you make a fraudulent tax claim as you recommend, it’s not the taxman who is paying, but the tax payer. That would be me and a few million other Aussies.

    Worth considering.

    Leigh


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  5. #19
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    Feb 2003
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
    Ian - just to make it clear, when you make a fraudulent tax claim as you recommend,
    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    30+ years ago, I wrote off a custom bicycle, helmet and complete cycle outfit in one year on the basis that equipping myself it was a requirement of my then job.
    it’s not the taxman who is paying, but the tax payer. That would be me and a few million other Aussies.
    Leigh
    Leigh
    I don't want to say what my legitimate job was 30+ years ago. Doing so would provide too much personal info about myself.
    suffice to say that, while depreciating the cost of the bicycle was over two tax years was a little unusual, the deduction claimed was legitimate.

    as to Bernmc's comment
    The taxman will buy me something smallish, but I'd have difficulty convincing him that a machine costing more than the GDP of a small country to make some acrylic widgets was a genuine need!
    my suggestion to Bernmc would only be encouraging a fraudulent tax claim if Bernmc had no intention of using the bigger CNC machine to make a number of large acrylic items for sale.

    I believe that my suggestion does not breach the letter or spirit of the yet to be passed (?) tax measure.

    However, as a tax payer myself, I do find the whole 100% instant write-off up to $100,000 to be very much on the overgenerous side.
    $100,000 is equivalent to a very well equipped workshop for a sole trader.
    And I note the Federal Government doesn't want to provide real support to the economy by investing in social housing rather than toll roads.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  6. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Peoples Republic of Bryn
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    393

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    Format4 CNC starts at a mere $100,000. I’ve ordered 3 as you can never have enough

    And I’ve confirmed that there are currently no plans to build a bigger Hammer HNC.

    Bit more research on the Axiom v Hammer -
    - Axiom has ball screws vs Hammer lead screws;
    - Hammer’s 2.2kW spindle appears to be a Tekno with ceramic bearings - very high-end beast. ER25 collet (Axiom is ER20); And Felder/Hammer approve/certify their machine for milling non-ferrous metals.
    - Axiom driven by UCCNC, Hammer is EdingCNC. EdingCNC has a very nice wireless hand controller, but it’s 350 euro (the Axiom’s hand controller is around AU$350).
    -Major difference is in size. Hammer is 80kg, and almost a desktop machine - with correspondingly smaller work surface. The AR6 is 160Kg!

    Axiom comes with tool sensor and ½ and ¼ inch collets. In the usual Felder way, these are all extras.

    Both companies (BG Precision for the Axiom) have been responsive and helpful.

    Interestingly, Axiom lists Felder as a partner/affiliate on their US website. I wonder how many axioms Felder pulled apart...!
    Great info Bernmc,

    Being able to mill Aluminium is a plus, making up parts for bending and welding would be great to have in the workshop, i'd like to know the max depth, if you happen to have any info on that aspect.

    But I do think the smaller size of the hammer is a bit too small, i do hope that they do look at a larger model in the future, it wouldn't be hard to increase it to around 1250mm x 650mm working area.

  7. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
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    34
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    6,127

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    I suspect most small CNC routers can handle aluminium, in the engineering world it's referred to as 'shiny wood'

    According to FS Wizard (feed/speed calculator app), a 6mm diameter, 2-flute carbide endmill at 4mm depth (full width) doing 18k RPM needs about 1hp. Power is not going to be an issue no matter what machine you go for.

  8. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    1,014

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    Their FAQ just say it's been tested on squishy metal and works and you will not be shot for doing it (ya?). Details are pretty scant. I think bottom line is that this is a very new machine, and even the Felder sales people are still getting their heads around it. Marius Hornberger's original video was a pre-production model - it's recently been sent back and replaced with the production model. The manual link on the webpage doesn't work at the moment.

    So, hot off the press, just out of the oven etc.

    Hammer HNC FAQ mechanics | Felder Group
    Hammer HNC FAQ Control | Felder Group

  9. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    549

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    Bernmc,

    I have a decent home built CNC Router if you want to come and have a yarn and go through things.

    I'm a couple of suburbs over from you if I recall correctly.

    Send me a PM if you are interested.

  10. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Newcastle
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Bernmc,

    I have a decent home built CNC Router if you want to come and have a yarn and go through things.

    Send me a PM if you are interested.
    Fantastic - pm sent!

  11. #25
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    Nov 2018
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    Newcastle
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    After looking at pippin88's machine I decided that a wide/short format was quite nice, as opposed to the narrow/long format of the Hammer and Axiom machines. It would suit my current space, and it also allows for milling longer work as indexed/tiled and feeding out the back.

    Player 3 has entered the game.

    Just got off the blower to Avid CNC (great bunch - pretty helpful) to talk about their 4x2 pro machine. The attraction is that their machines are designed to be easily expandable, so you can start with the little one, and add length along the Y axis as required. They also strike the right balance between fully assembled and fully DIY for me at the moment - I just don't have the time to build something from the ground up, but I will enjoy assembling 300kg of flat packs!

    I'm waiting on quotes and figures - will put them up here for reference. International shipping (ugh) is always going to be a bit of a killer, but then we're paying it in some form for any imported machines - it's just hidden in the price of the hammer/axiom. I Expect somewhere around US$1000 on a boat to Sydney, and then some more to get it to the outer Hebrides that is Newcastle.

    Then there's duties - has anyone imported something machine-like from the US with a value > $1000? Some sites I've looked at mentioned free-trade agreements with the US, but I haven't dug much deeper. Otherwise it would seem to be 5% on cost+shipping+insurance, and then 10%GST on that total. Plus whatever fees customs/customs agents charge on top of that. Be interested to hear from anyone who's done it recently.

    Their machines are available with as much/little as you want - from buying everything you need to assemble a fulling working CNC, to just getting the basic frame and gantry, and adding electronics, spindle and so on with your own purchases and options.

  12. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
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    The US/Oz FTA agreeement is only valid if all the components that make the machine are manufactured in the US and the importer claiming the duty free import has to sign a declaration to that fact. In all my importing using the FTA to avoid having to pay duty I never encountered any questions or requirements to prove what I declared but the declaration could be easily proven in my case anyway. I doubt any CNC would qualify as a lot of parts are commonly sourced from China but that would have to looked at.
    CHRIS

  13. #27
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    I'm waiting on quotes and figures - will put them up here for reference. International shipping (ugh) is always going to be a bit of a killer, but then we're paying it in some form for any imported machines - it's just hidden in the price of the hammer/axiom. I Expect somewhere around US$1000 on a boat to Sydney, and then some more to get it to the outer Hebrides that is Newcastle.

    Then there's duties - has anyone imported something machine-like from the US with a value > $1000? Some sites I've looked at mentioned free-trade agreements with the US, but I haven't dug much deeper. Otherwise it would seem to be 5% on cost+shipping+insurance, and then 10%GST on that total. Plus whatever fees customs/customs agents charge on top of that. Be interested to hear from anyone who's done it recently.
    a single CNC machine could be privately imported via air freight or a Less than Container Load (LCL) package.

    it would be in your interest to arrange for enough CNC machines to be imported to justify renting a full sized container -- 20 ft box.

    the last private import I was part of was an air freight shipment from Germany, getting on for 8 years ago.
    the shipping agent and customs charges + GST were in the order of AUD $2300.
    All up, the 3 "private importers" saved around $600 each compared to buying the imported item locally. The total savings was about $1800.
    The item's Australian agent has since reduced their price for the item we imported by enough to make the hassle of privately importing not worth the effort.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  14. #28
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    Nov 2018
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    I've started a new thread here to detail the costs and the build of my Avid CNC. Thought I'd start a clean thread for anyone looking for similar info.

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