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  1. #61
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    Thanks for the update. Many important lessons here.

    Not being an electrician, but these things don't look to be a huge deal to self rectify.

    Everyone knows you should use gromets. This is simple to fix and should be part of your regular self maintenance and inspection routine. (My Jet horizontal oscillating belt sander didn't have them)

    If the cabling isn't up to spec on a run, it's no big deal to rectify.

    The water issue is more serious, but again, fixable... Especially if you are the type of guy who is into CNC (i.e. handy with A Lot Of Things).

    Perhaps you've made a much bigger problem here than was necessary?

    The earthing is more serious. I would have thought that good quality earthing would be sensible on every machine. Much of those I see in woodwork, especially big machines, is absolute rubbish.

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  3. #62
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    If I have read the posts correctly, I don’t think the OP made a bigger problem. His initial concern was the earthing and that is what he was asking the Webbs to fix and that is what he reported to the Authority.
    It was the electrician that that he contacted, as requested by the Webbs, that found the rest.

  4. #63
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    Of course if Roger Webb was a more knowledgeable, reasonable and helpful person to deal with the problem would have been dealt with without all the unnecessary angst. His problems have been exacerbated by his attitude, to his own detriment.

  5. #64
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    Feb 2012
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    Hoddles Creek
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    Thanks for the update. Many important lessons here.

    Not being an electrician, but these things don't look to be a huge deal to self rectify.

    Everyone knows you should use gromets. This is simple to fix and should be part of your regular self maintenance and inspection routine. (My Jet horizontal oscillating belt sander didn't have them)

    If the cabling isn't up to spec on a run, it's no big deal to rectify.

    The water issue is more serious, but again, fixable... Especially if you are the type of guy who is into CNC (i.e. handy with A Lot Of Things).

    Perhaps you've made a much bigger problem here than was necessary?

    The earthing is more serious. I would have thought that good quality earthing would be sensible on every machine. Much of those I see in woodwork, especially big machines, is absolute rubbish.
    You are right....all of this is quite easy to rectify. That being said, I'll mention a couple of things.

    Firstly, if Roger had been fair and reasonable about other issues instead of refusing to acknowledge even the most clearly obvious issues, I probably would have been able to sort the electrical safety issue without resorting to lodging a complaint with Energy Safe. However, Roger was not in the least user friendly, lied and dodged his responsibilities. Now he is faced with the possibility of having to pay to make every machine he has sold electrically safe and I don't feel the slightest amount of guilt or regret that other owners will be safer for my intervention.

    Secondly, having gone down the path I did, I employed an electrician to assess the machine and that resulted in my becoming aware of other safety issues that I would not have known about if Roger and I had agreed that a mains earth could be sorted easily between us.

    I don't know how many machines that Roger has sold or what the financial ramifications for him will be to bring them all up to spec if required by Energy Safe. Do I feel smug for causing him possible financial difficulties? No! Absolutely not. But do I regret the process of bringing it to this point? Again, no! Absolutely not. I certainly don't think I've made a bigger problem than was necessary, as you suggest. I think Roger did that and in any event, electrical safety by definition can't be a bigger problem than necessary.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    If I have read the posts correctly, I don’t think the OP made a bigger problem. His initial concern was the earthing and that is what he was asking the Webbs to fix and that is what he reported to the Authority.
    It was the electrician that that he contacted, as requested by the Webbs, that found the rest.
    Agreed and thanks.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldav View Post
    Of course if Roger Webb was a more knowledgeable, reasonable and helpful person to deal with the problem would have been dealt with without all the unnecessary angst. His problems have been exacerbated by his attitude, to his own detriment.
    Agreed and thanks.

  8. #67
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    Hi Dougshed

    You may well have saved the lives of a few people by doing what you did. Congratulations.

    As you point out, if he hadn't been such a !@#$%^& *()_ in the beginning, you probably wouldn't have taken it any further.
    Bob Willson
    The term 'grammar nazi' was invented to make people, who don't know their grammar, feel OK about being uneducated.

  9. #68
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    As a Quality Engineer in a previous life, one of my responsibilities was for compliance & certification of 240V items the company I worked for manufactured.
    I know first hand how much time, effort & money local manufacturers have to spend to sell products that are safe.
    Imported electrical product that doesn't comply is one reason they are cheaper, and also less safe.

    Everyone involved in the local supply chain is legally responsible for any necessary safety compliance. Whether they know it, or profess not to.
    There is much documented evidence of what can go wrong when things are not compliant. Buildings burning down, people being electrocuted etc.

    I applaud anyone who takes the time, steps up to the plate, and makes those who are responsible, actually responsible.
    If they need to involve Energy Safe, so what. The product is now safe, and so will some other products in the market place be made safe.

    And that's gotta be a good thing.

  10. #69
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    I dont disagree with anything anyone is saying here. Perhaps I've been over-read as being negative or "attack-y"... absolutely not my intention.

    The issue of earthing is absolutely critical. So many machines I look at are poorly earthed... almost an afterthought, tacked-on, barely capable of carrying a current and IF some sort of short should occur, barely useful.

    Apologies for my poorly worded post previously.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    I dont disagree with anything anyone is saying here. Perhaps I've been over-read as being negative or "attack-y"... absolutely not my intention.

    The issue of earthing is absolutely critical. So many machines I look at are poorly earthed... almost an afterthought, tacked-on, barely capable of carrying a current and IF some sort of short should occur, barely useful.

    Apologies for my poorly worded post previously.
    Apology unnecessary but thanks anyway. I think most of what you said was valid. It was mainly the ' Perhaps you've made a much bigger problem here than was necessary ' comment that made me respond the way I did. Also, even in a venue like this where many members are electrically well informed, you can't assume that that is the case and advising people with no electrical know-how to self repair their machine is a dangerous thing in itself.

    As a result of my posting all of this, I was contacted yesterday by a guy called David who bought the same machine and who shares my experience with Roger Webb's lack of co-operation (putting it nicely). He had no idea at all that his machine was unsafe. He will also be contacting Energy Safe and that's now one more machine that will be made safe as a result.

    Cheers
    **** Post Script**** David texted me earlier today to confirm that he had just received a call from Maria Webb committing to making his machine electrically safe. And again, it seems that Roger does not wish to do the difficult work and face his customers.

  12. #71
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    It's a bit different now with electronic controls for everything but, not that long ago, I used to rewire industrial machinery imported from China. The wiring didn't conform to Aus standards, so had to be redone, but the control gear was often fake, meaning it was branded as, for instance, Siemens but was a poor quality knock off. The control gear didn't have Aus approval and would also have to be replaced. If it wasn't replaced it usually failed within a very short period anyway. I used to do this for companies that factored the replacement cost into the price of the machine. The hardware was ok quality for what they wanted and still cheap enough even with the replacement of the wiring and controls. This was for smaller quarries and saw mills mainly where the cost of European or US machines was well out of their budget.
    If anyone in Sydney has an imported Chinese machine that they are concerned about, I am happy to drop in and give it a once over for safety.
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
    https://autoblastgates.com.au

  13. #72
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    I watch some of Roger Webbs videos and I have inquired 2 or 3 times about the pricing from him.
    In his videos he makes it clear that (paraphrasing) "...we are making machines that are up to European, American and Australian standards because other machines you might buy form China are not up to those standards.."
    There are videos of him giving tours of "..our factory".
    There are videos of him unboxing and demonstrating machines where he gives every possible indication that these are machines from "..our factory". He uses the word "..we.." in this context a lot.
    If you email Pacific Tooling for pricing you get an email from Roger and Maria Webb representing Pacific Tooling in response.

    But now we are told through a third party (forum member) that he claims not to own or have any responsibility for Pacific Tooling. We haven't heard his side of that story I must point out.
    I have gone back and watched some of his videos. If you watch more clearly and look at the comments he is a little bit cagey about this whole topic. Why is that?
    Why was the invoice to our forum member from another company?

    Also...
    There is no web site.
    He is obviously importing these machines into Australia for his own use. He has imported quite a few. Why doesn't he appoint an Australian distributor or become one himself?

    What I suspect is that, it is the old story, I have seen several times. Perhaps, he is a great tinker, designer, inventor. Probably has the best of intentions. But these people are rarely also good business people on top of all those other skills. Perhaps, it might take him some time to realise that he needs to partner with other companies who are better at marketing, selling and supporting products. That is a whole other set of skills and business than product development. Lots of people think that part is easy but in reality it is not an easy business to do well.

    I hope I am being fair to him since we have not heard his side of the story but these are questions people have a right to ask before handing over thousands of dollars.

  14. #73
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    I don't need to hear anyones side of the story to know their legal obligations. It's already documented.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVman View Post
    Perhaps, he is a great tinker, designer, inventor.
    If I recall correctly he doesn't even know how to check electrical wiring for continuity using a multi meter so it would seem doubtful that he fits any of those descriptions. On top of that it would appear that he is abrasive, rude and dismissive of his customers. What he needs is someone to front the business who has, at least some, customer service skills so that he never has to deal directly with a customer again.

  16. #75
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    Thanks for the post. I am in the process of purchasing a machine from China, just due to the fact its easier than building another one. I am only writing to let you know, and everybody else, that all of your troubles are quite normal when dealing with Chinese manufacturers. I owned a woodworking machinery retail company for 8 years. I cant remember a time where I received a container without problems. Sanders going backwards, cheap bearings in spindle molders that seize, wiring connections with high resistance and the list goes on. Most of the manufacturers are making products out of copies. And they copy from memory, not from large research departments that reverse engineer. Copy from memory. Yep.

    But. It is cheap to deal with the Chinese. Just gotta set your bar low and be in for a nice surprise if it all goes well. I still have machinery 10+ years old, out of China, that I am still using and am happy with.

    Have you posted any movies of your CNC machine in action?

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