Thread: Woodworking wizards in Mach3

How much interest would there be in a Mach3 screenset with the aforementioned wizards built in?
I'm thinking of doing a screenset tailored to woodworkers. All the "wizards" would be built into the screenset. Would this be preferable to a suite of wizards? Or would you rather just have the wizards?

I would probably just like the wizards themselves as they can then be integrated into any other screenset that I may use.

It appears that the new wizards Ron is working on will be a stand alone application? Would that be a better option?
In some ways, it's slightly less convenient, but in other ways, it's much more convenient. And it won't become obsolete when Mach4 is available.

One issue with cutting dovetails and box joints is tearout.
I've seen a video where consecutive shallow cuts were made until the depth was sufficient to allow cutting through with out tearout. This seems to me to be the best method to achieve consistent, quality results.
However, I can see where you might want to place a stack of boards on the machine, or use sacrificial backer boards to prevent tearout. In that case, you'd want to use a different technique.

When cutting through dovetails, what do you propose to do with the radius corners in the tails from the router bit? Do you clean them up by hand, or round over the pins? Guess you need to have both options.

I can see this being a tremendously complex project.

Is this the method you'd want for half blind dovetails? ShopBot Cutting Dovetails - YouTube

Or, would you want to cut the parts individually?
Actually, this method only works for equal spaced dovetails. Personally, If I'm going to CNC them, I 'd want something a bit more original.

In my other post, I mentioned rounded corners, but a YouTUbe video pointed out that both pins and tails are cut vertically, so no rounded corners.

I just stumbled across this. Dovetail Wizard CNC
I'd seen it before, but had forgotten about it. Terrible website, and it seems like the project may be dead, as it's been ongoing for 2 years??

Someone on JoesCNC forum wrote something a few years ago, but never released it to the public. I had heard it was being re-done, but not sure if it was ever finished?

Dovetails - custom through dovetail G-Code compiler for Joes Hybrid 4x4 CNC - YouTube

Cutting Dovetails on a Joes Hybrid 4x4 1/2 - YouTube

Cutting Dovetails on a Joes Hybrid 4x4 2/2 - YouTube

Box Joint on CNC 4x4 Hybrid Joes - Final toolpaths - YouTube

Originally Posted by Ger21

It appears that the new wizards Ron is working on will be a stand alone application? Would that be a better option?

Ron's wizards are, generally speaking, only for engineering and not for woodworkers/cabinetmakers

Originally Posted by Ger21

In some ways, it's slightly less convenient, but in other ways, it's much more convenient. And it won't become obsolete when Mach4 is available.

I would much prefer to have everything integrated into Mach. I see no downside to this and much upside.

Originally Posted by Ger21

One issue with cutting dovetails and box joints is tearout.
I've seen a video where consecutive shallow cuts were made until the depth was sufficient to allow cutting through with out tearout. This seems to me to be the best method to achieve consistent, quality results.
However, I can see where you might want to place a stack of boards on the machine, or use sacrificial backer boards to prevent tearout. In that case, you'd want to use a different technique.

I can see no relevant differences here. A stack of boards is a good way of getting four or more boards all cut to the same sizes. Generally speaking, with through dovetails it is a good idea to use a 6mm scarificial tearout board at the rear anyway

Originally Posted by Ger21

When cutting through dovetails, what do you propose to do with the radius corners in the tails from the router bit? Do you clean them up by hand, or round over the pins? Guess you need to have both options.

There is no cleanup required. The round bit is used with the work piece in the upright position.

Originally Posted by Ger21

I can see this being a tremendously complex project.

Originally Posted by Ger21

Is this the method you'd want for half blind dovetails? ShopBot Cutting Dovetails - YouTube

Yes, that is the best way to cut half blind dovetails. It is a good thing to take a skim across the face of the timber to eliminate the tearout that would otherwise be certain to occur.

Originally Posted by Ger21

Or, would you want to cut the parts individually?

No, it is always best to cut the two parts together as this saves setup time and helps to eliminate errors

Originally Posted by Ger21

Actually, this method only works for equal spaced dovetails. Personally, If I'm going to CNC them, I 'd want something a bit more original.

I don't see why it only works for equal spaces. Originality is good.

I

Originally Posted by Ger21

n my other post, I mentioned rounded corners, but a YouTUbe video pointed out that both pins and tails are cut vertically, so no rounded corners.

Originally Posted by Ger21

I just stumbled across this. Dovetail Wizard CNC
I'd seen it before, but had forgotten about it. Terrible website, and it seems like the project may be dead, as it's been ongoing for 2 years??

Yes, I also saw that and agree that it seems a little dead. Obviously the writer didnot have the necessary skills to make it all work.

Originally Posted by Ger21

Someone on JoesCNC forum wrote something a few years ago, but never released it to the public. I had heard it was being re-done, but not sure if it was ever finished?

Dovetails - custom through dovetail G-Code compiler for Joes Hybrid 4x4 CNC - YouTube

Cutting Dovetails on a Joes Hybrid 4x4 1/2 - YouTube

Cutting Dovetails on a Joes Hybrid 4x4 2/2 - YouTube

Box Joint on CNC 4x4 Hybrid Joes - Final toolpaths - YouTube

I think that if it was finished then we would have heard about it by now.

I don't like the way they (Hybrid Joes) do their box joints one at a time, this is inherently less accurate than cutting all four pieces together and far more time consuming as well.

Also, it is necessary to remember that some doevtails require two types of bit and some only need the one or the other.
Through dovetails need both and the components can be stacked
Half blind dovetails need only dovetail bits but the components cannot be stacked but both halves of each corner can be completed in one go.
Box joints need only a straight bit and the components SHOULD (generally) be stacked

Nobody seems to have brought this to the market place yet and so an opportunity certainly exists for a reasonably priced product. Maybe even some sort of a partnership with the Mach team?

And then, once you have done those wizards then you can move onto the isoloc joints and really start to make your fortune.

Bob, what do you think about the option of using a straight bit as a "roughing" tool when doing half blind dovetails? It would really require an ATC, or 2 spindle machine to use efficiently, but it would save a lot of wear on the bits.

To simplify operation, I'm thinking about having two separate half blind wizards.
One to do single pass, equally spaced dovetails, and another for multiple pass (wider than the bit) and variable spacing.

I'm doing some preliminary layout work. This takes a lot of time, as I'm a bit picky about how things look. I'm unsure if this will be an integrated wizard, or a standalone app.
Doing it as a wizard is much easier for me, as I wouldn't need to learn VB.net.
However, the wizard approach has some other issues. The main one is screen size. If the user has Auto Screen Enlarge enabled, then the wizard can be stretched to multiple sizes. This can make it look very bad, and leave some of the text nearly unreadable. You can work around the text issue a bit by using larger, bolder text. But the rest of the screen won't look very good.




ww1.jpg

Hi Ger

I think that although it will be a bit of a pain to use, the idea of doing a first roughing cut is probably necessary. The few tails that I have cut so far made the bit chatter and jump a little. This was, I believe, mostly due to the 1/4" shaft size, but I am restricted to using that size unless I go for a larger spindle that will accept larger than ER11 bits (0.5mm - 7.0mm). Another factor is that I cannot slow the spindle speed too much as otherwise I lose too much torque. ~ 10,000 rpm is the minimum the spindle is happy at. This is a real bugger when cutting aluminium.

When roughing out this way, I would expect that you are intending to leave about 0.5mm at the bottoms and sides of the cuts?

The same roughing option would be good for the through dovetails as well, but not (of course) required for box joints.

Given that the bottom of the joint would always be at the same level relative to the top of the table, it may even make sense for people to put two zero measuring blocks on the table. One for the straight cutter giving the 0.5mm above the table top and another that sets the dovetail cutter at full depth. This should speed up bit changes considerably. Or even just the one and handle the height setting in software.

Maybe you can overcome the auto screen enlarge by setting and resetting this feature when the wizard is run.

Turn of auto screen enlarge

Originally Posted by Bob Willson

Maybe you can overcome the auto screen enlarge by setting and resetting this feature when the wizard is run.

No, because it only takes effect when Mach3 is closed and restarted.

Given that the bottom of the joint would always be at the same level relative to the top of the table

Not necessarily. With a handheld jig, the depth must always be the same due to the spacing of the jig, but with cnc the depth can be whatever you want it to be up to the length of the cutting edge, and the spacing varies to accommodate the depth. Zeroing will be off the top of the stock.
As for zeroing multiple tools, my screenset is set up to automatically zero tools during a toolchange, so toolchanges are already as painless as they can be.

Hi Ger

Has there beem any more progress on this yet? Any and all information will be good to get.

Not really. I've looked at it a few times, but haven't done anything. Although I am actually working on it right now.

Don't expect anything for a few months at least. I have a lot of things on my plate.

But I will keep this thread updated as a I make progress.

OK, I've been working on this for a few hours today.

Now, I know it's not what you wanted, but I'm doing this as a standalone application, rather than a Mach3 wizard.
I have what I feel is a very good reason for doing this.

In order for this to be a very useful tool, it needs to be more than just a g-code generator. It also needs to be a dovetail "designer".

A designer needs to provide some visual feedback. I couldn't do that with a Mach3 wizard. Hence the need for a standalone app.

What I've been working on today is providing that visual feedback, in the form of a preview. Attached are a few examples.

What I've currently got is only for doing single pass, equal spaced dovetails the size of the bit. You do have more flexibility than a standard jig, though, because you choose and depth up to the tool length. Varying the depth varies the width and number of tails, which can't be done with a jig. If you end up with a half tail, sometimes you can adjust the depth to make it a full tail. Pretty handy.

What I need to add is a few options for dovetails wider than the bit. They'll still be equally spaced, though. Variable spacing will require a different interface with different and more options. That'll come after I get the first part working.

Feedback will be welcome. I'm going to post this on CNC Zone and see if I can get some more feedback there as well.