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  1. #61
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    Default More on The Chair build.

    The chair is beginning to resemble The Chair ...

    The Chair – Fitting the Front and Rear Stretchers (Part 2)

    Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...8Part2%29.html

    All comments and discussion most welcome.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Thanks Basil. I have been in touch with Stephen (Shepherd).

    I think that epoxy remains the best choice.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Derek,

    I would be interested to hear of your reasoning, Was your decision based on the limitations of the joints, or the potential break down of the hide glue as noted by TT.

    I conducted an experiment some time ago using hide glue on a butt joint i.e. end grain to long grain by sizing both first with 10% strength then applying the glue to both and clamping overnight, and leaving for a few days to fully cure, before breaking the joint. I am not suggesting this method be used as a working joint ! but it is a good indication of the strength that is gained simply on end grain.

    I shall look forward to the upgrade of the joints to blind fox wedges, in a future stage, after there is no more challenge left in the build.

    Regards

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    .....a good indication of the strength that is gained simply on end grain.....
    Basil, I think that strength of glue is a moot point, here. As people like to point out, most glues have a higher structural strength than wood (provided they form a very thin layer). As long as the proximity of the glued surfaces is within that limit, virtually any glue will work.

    I reckon the joints of this chair are simply under-engineered, and will eventually fail because of that, whatever glue is used. Epoxy will probably last the longest because it has both high structural strength and a bit of plasticity, but there is simply too much stress on too small an area for anything to hold indefinitely, & failure will occur either in the wood or in the glue (or a bit of both), in time. Derek's painstaking construction, & gentle use, may well see this chair remain sound for many years, but I'll lay bets it wouldn't cop the rough & tumble of heavy use.....

    It's still an elegant chair, and a challenge & a lot of fun to make with hand tools, so well worth the build - especially for the non-involved audience!

    Cheers,
    IW

  5. #64
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    Ian

    Just to clarify, I am not suggesting the use of Hide glue as a fail safe solution for the job, although I do believe most ( not all ) underestimate its capability and ease of use.

    If this was my project, I would firstly look into the joinery and ways to improve / simplify this, and probably then use Hide Glue perhaps with differential moisture content between tenon and mortise ( but not Green wood ), then if failure occurs at least it can be repaired, albeit with a little difficulty,

    I really like the aesthetics of the chair and personally I don't have a problem with the engineering of it, subject to a very tight fit on the joints, and given the limitations of of the scantlings of the legs and rails. I consider it fit for purpose, however, I think there is a problem when users subject the chair to inappropriate use and it is more than likely then going to fail.

    One project I have on the Bucket List is to design and make a chair of the lightest possible construction, possibly without glue, so that will involve lots more research, and trial, and no doubt some patience from Father Time.

    Top marks to Derek for taking this on, it reminds me of a comment from the late Tom Harrington on a chair he made with coped rails that the primary thing he learnt was not to do it again. Perhaps Derek may consider that he must fine tune what he has learnt on #2 ...3...4

    Regards

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    ....Just to clarify, I am not suggesting the use of Hide glue as a fail safe solution for the job, although I do believe most ( not all ) underestimate its capability and ease of use....
    I'm in the set that likes & uses (hot) hide glue for any project I expect to last more than a generation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    .... If this was my project, I would firstly look into the joinery and ways to improve / simplify this, and probably then use Hide Glue perhaps with differential moisture content between tenon and mortise ( but not Green wood ), then if failure occurs at least it can be repaired, albeit with a little difficulty,..
    Agree. If I were making this chair I would have carried the tenons through & wedged them. To me, that would be only a slight departure from the original and not detract from the overall aesthetic. However, neither of us is making it, & Derek wishes to follow the original to the letter, so he's stuck with the inadequate joinery (imo!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    .... I really like the aesthetics of the chair and personally I don't have a problem with the engineering of it, subject to a very tight fit on the joints, and given the limitations of the scantlings of the legs and rails. I consider it fit for purpose, however, I think there is a problem when users subject the chair to inappropriate use and it is more than likely then going to fail.....
    As I said, I also like the aesthetics - I was a very big fan of Scandanavian design in the '60s. But I'm afraid I do have a problem with the engineering of this (& similar) chairs. However, it's just my personal opinion.
    Indeed, the problem is that chairs will virtually always be subjected to abuse - I've leant back excessively on more than one chair myself, & I should know better, particularly as I know who is going to have to repair any 'accidents'.

    This is not really the place to get into the finer points of chair design, but there are two fundamental problems I see in this type of chair. One is the relatively small rail joints, the other is the splay on the back legs. The original has some, many knock-offs have little or none. Tipping the chair backwards under load, which is something that shouldn't happen, but frequently does, stresses the bejesus out of the fore-aft rail joints in the back legs. Back splay makes it more difficult to tip the chair, so not only adds to stability, it discourages abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    .... One project I have on the Bucket List is to design and make a chair of the lightest possible construction, possibly without glue, so that will involve lots more research, and trial, and no doubt some patience from Father Time. ....
    These are called 'Windsor chairs', 'stick chairs', and various other names. They've been around for a while (& last a while, too, when well-made) My favourites were made in a place called Boston, a few years before Wegner was around....


    Cheers,
    IW

  7. #66
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    Default From

    From the engineering point of view - Derek's choice of Jarrah will give these joints more strength that the originals IMHO.

    Yes, it's a deficient design in a few ways, but it is elegant, you can't take away from that.

    The choice of Jarrah & use of epoxy resin IMHO will give this slightly deficient engineering design the best possible chance of a long working life IMHO.

    I agree that Hide glue would likely make it eminently more 'repairable' after joint failure at some point in the future.

    He looks to be enjoying the build and making a lovely job of it thus far.

  8. #67
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    Ian

    Yes I agree the chair is most likely weak when leant back in, exposed wedges on the tenons are attractive in the right place, but I believe they would detract from the overall aesthetic of " The Chair "

    When I designed this chair I made a conscious decision with the splay on the back legs to make it difficult to lean back which has ( so far ) proved successful and the relatively wide seat rails are giving the front legs adequate support. I have made a total of eight, three of which were done with Hot hide glue, which made the build work better.

    I have made a Double Bow windsor which SWMBO seems to have taken ownership of, as it is a very comfortable, but in my opinion they have limitations as they are not a light chair and take up a lot of real estate. What I have in mind for the future is something with a much lower back, using much less wood of finer scantlings.

    That will have to do on that as I don't wish to highjack this thread.

    Regards
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    ....That will have to do on that as I don't wish to highjack this thread...
    OK, Bas. Apologies to Derek, but I think our chit-chat has been sort of on-topic - we have been mainly discussing 'those joints'.

    Just two final comments from me, then:
    1. Nice chair - did you source the oak locally, & did you weave the seat? Caning a seat is one job I've yet to try....
    2. I think Windsors can be both lighter & stronger pound for pound than any other chair design yet devised. I confess I have a very strong bias towards them, but can't convert my Minister of Home Affairs, so I wouldn't try to convince anyone else...

    Cheers,
    IW

  10. #69
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    Default

    Ian

    Thank you

    It is american White Oak which i did source local but obviously imported, I wanted European Oak but this was not available until after I completed the first chair, when a quantity of quarter sawn European Oak appeared, which i purchased and made an extending dining table.
    Yes I weave the seats which I find quite meditative, and very satisfying. The weaving alone takes a full day, and it is a very labour intensive chair with a lot of hand work.

    Well my other half was initially not exactly thrilled about me making a Windsor, but now after a day in the workshop, its " you look tired dear would you like to sit in MY chair !! and have an Ale ", so I suggest you make one as I would be confident of a similar response as they are comfortable.

    Apologies for for the raid on your thread Derek, we shall keep asides, to intervals in your progress.

    Regards

  11. #70
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    Default

    Hi Basil

    Do not stop posting! I love your chair, and I love the diversions. We seem to get back on track eventually, and discussion around and about the issues is what makes the thread interesting and a learning experience.

    Your chair: the curve for the backrest is interesting - I love the line. What is the lumber support like ...

    ... actually, how much lumber support is really necessary in a chair - or does it depend on the nature of the chair, that is, the reason for the chair. The Chair does not have lumber support, yet is very comfortable. It is a chair designed for dining, primarily, I believe. Maloof chairs seem to be all about lumber support, and the most famous of these are for reclining. Thoughts?

    Epoxy? The undercutting at the shoulders is minimal and the joints should be tight without much in the way of gaps (internally). I plan to use epoxy, partly because it has some ability to withstand flex and partly as it is gap-filling where gaps may occur. Also, because it is repairable.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    OK, Bas. Apologies to Derek, but I think our chit-chat has been sort of on-topic - we have been mainly discussing 'those joints'.

    Just two final comments from me, then:
    1. Nice chair - did you source the oak locally, & did you weave the seat? Caning a seat is one job I've yet to try....
    2. I think Windsors can be both lighter & stronger pound for pound than any other chair design yet devised. I confess I have a very strong bias towards them, but can't convert my Minister of Home Affairs, so I wouldn't try to convince anyone else...

    Cheers,
    Hi Ian

    I agree about the Windsors. My next chair is likely going to be a modern take on one. Like you, however, Lynndy does not see a need for more chairs (hence the delay in building one). Can't wives see that building furniture is not always about what we need?!

    Basil, would you say something about the caning - was this a pre-made mesh, or did you weave it all yourself? And what materials/from whom?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  13. #72
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    Default Mix sanding dust

    Derek,

    If you want to for the slight gaps you can take some of your fine Jarrah sanding dust and mix it with the epoxy - so that what squeezes out of the joint fills any gap and matches as near as possible the surrounding Jarrah timber.

    Back when I did a lot of slab type tables...I'd use epoxy mixed with very fine sanding dust (off the door sander) from the slab, and disguise very small defects this way. It seems to work a treat. (For larger defects I'd "feature" those by using black oxide to make them look like keno, so disguise small defects and feature the big ones).

    I can't see why you couldn't do that with your joints on the chair if you were of a mind too if it will help disguise any small gaps where the stretchers and coped tenons butt to the turned leg as long as the gap is small enough to be disguised.

    Just a suggestion - feel free to ignore.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Hi Basil

    Do not stop posting! I love your chair, and I love the diversions. We seem to get back on track eventually, and discussion around and about the issues is what makes the thread interesting and a learning experience.

    Your chair: the curve for the backrest is interesting - I love the line. What is the lumber support like ...

    ... actually, how much lumber support is really necessary in a chair - or does it depend on the nature of the chair, that is, the reason for the chair. The Chair does not have lumber support, yet is very comfortable. It is a chair designed for dining, primarily, I believe. Maloof chairs seem to be all about lumber support, and the most famous of these are for reclining. Thoughts?

    Epoxy? The undercutting at the shoulders is minimal and the joints should be tight without much in the way of gaps (internally). I plan to use epoxy, partly because it has some ability to withstand flex and partly as it is gap-filling where gaps may occur. Also, because it is repairable.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Thanks Derek

    I spent a lot of time doing the design, as comfort was a big priority, and I wanted a chair with aesthetic impact, for our home.

    I did a lot of reading on chairs and sat in many different chairs, I then did a very simple small sketch just to gather my thoughts, then knocked up a full size chair using Radiata Pine, screws, and hot melt glue, then changed it until I had the form, and level of comfort I liked. After that I resolved the materials including what upholstery to go for and made the first chair.

    One thing I picked up in my research was from the automotive industry, which had been trying for a very long time to make the perfect seat, and molding these around the human form. They realised that these chairs could only be sat in for very limited periods, because they were too restrictive, a really comfortable chair allows you to make continuous small changes to your position.
    The back slats provide very good lumbar support, and this also extends up to shoulder level. The slats are laminated out of three pieces of Oak on a form, then shaped to fit into mortises in the top and bottom back rails and allowed to flex slightly ( no glue ) I also set the length so they can be removed if required without breaking them. I have had may favourable comments on the comfort of the chairs, and we find that people are happy to continue on at the dining table well after a meal, instead of retreating to a lounge chair. ( but this may also be due to the numbing of bottoms from a sufficiency of Malt Scotch )

    The chair seats I weave out of 2.5mm chair cane which is purchased in a roll which is sufficient to do approximately 2 chairs. The rolls are made up of a lot of individual lengths around 3 metre or so long, and these are cut into stands that will stretch across the chair seat . There are two strands horizontal two vertical and two in each diagonal , a total of eight strands. During the weaving the cane is moistened for flexibility and fed down through holes around the seat frame ( four to each hole ) they are held in place with a tapered peg during the process a golf tee is good for this. To finish the seat, small wood pegs around 5mm or so diameter are made up with a nice dome on the end to look nice, and hammered home to hold the cane in place.

    With a bit of practice it takes a full day to weave a seat which does not include drilling the eighty or so holes and the making and fitting of the pegs.

    I really like a good cane seat but not the sheet material, which I have not had success with. I bought cane on-line from Perth about four years ago, but if you have difficulty let me know and I will see if I can locate the supplier.

    The pattern I use is shown in the attached image.

    I am drawn to designing a chair using interlocking joinery without glue, as used a millennium or so ago by the Chinese, who I believe influenced Wegners designs.


    Regards
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timless Timber View Post
    Derek,

    If you want to for the slight gaps you can take some of your fine Jarrah sanding dust and mix it with the epoxy - so that what squeezes out of the joint fills any gap and matches as near as possible the surrounding Jarrah timber...
    TT, thanks for the reminder. I am working on removing as many of the gaps as possible by fine tuning, however there is a limit to this. A little epoxy and dust will help finish it off.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basilg View Post
    we find that people are happy to continue on at the dining table well after a meal,
    Design flaw right there.
    Paul

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