Thread: Small Coffee Table

The legs are not going to change with any future design amendments, so the first leg was made just to see if I still liked it.

I do. The pic shows the template made from 3 mm MDF and the first leg. Faster to make than my usual cabriole legs because they are not rounded off.

IMG20240520115737.jpg

All legs made. Stand them up and check for symmetry. Everything looks fine.

IMG20240520162300.jpg

These legs are quite easy to make. There is less work because they are not rounded off and because there is no foot.

There has been no response regarding wood movement, so I have decided I will press on and cut the aprons so the grain runs vertically, along with the legs. I have also decided to make the entire apron the drawer front and to use web frames to hold the unit together.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

Still thinking ... I want to make the grain for the aprons to run vertically, in the same direction as the legs. But how to allow for wood movement? The drawer runners can be made to allow for wood movement, but what do I do with the top? I want to veneer the top and have it glued to the aprons/tops of legs, but if I do that I stop the aprons from moving at the top, but not at the bottom.

My current thinking is that the aprons are only 220 mm wide, and that over such a short distance I'll likely be OK, especially I'll be using NG Rosewood, a low movement timber.

What is the thinking of the brains trust? Any bright ideas out there?

There is just a right way and a few wrong ways to go about it John.

The right way is to have the grain in the rails run horizontal and they either get veneered with Vertical timber before or after assembly to match the legs. And no way should the top be glued to the base. If you do it the way your thinking it will hold for a while but wont last.

Rob

Ahhhh ... Rob ... thanks for your advice.

I recall you have been generous with your time and advice before ... Wood Movement Question ... that conversation led to me making my first dovetailed carcass ...

I really want to keep the grain in the aprons vertical. I have options, but right now veneering the aprons but not the legs is not one of them. Unlike you, I am not a cabinetmaker. I don't have the skills to do that.

One option is to forget about the drawer and connect all four aprons to the legs with tenons. I've chosen the veneer for the top and plan to make a thinish veneered top with a darker timber used to make a border. This can be fastened in such a way as the carcass is able to move independently of the top.

Another option is to make web frames so the sides of the frames glued to the aprons are end grain, and will move with the aprons. Top will be the same as above.

Other options exist, but are not yet being considered.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

Ahhhh ... Rob ... thanks for your advice.

I recall you have been generous with your time and advice before ... Wood Movement Question ... that conversation led to me making my first dovetailed carcass ...

Yeah I remember that John. Its only Four years ago !

Originally Posted by John Samuel

I really want to keep the grain in the aprons vertical. I have options, but right now veneering the aprons but not the legs is not one of them. Unlike you, I am not a cabinetmaker. I don't have the skills to do that.

Ill give it a go trying to convince you then leave it at that.

What is it that you don't understand about building it that way John?

It would be made by veneering the apron and not the legs. There is a few ways to do that.
The apron as your calling them, the horizontal rails. Would have to be shaped to match the curve of the leg and then taken back .6mm if it was a fancy figured .6mm veneer you were using.
Or a sawn veneer roughly 2 mm thick could be pressed on and sanded back giving you a bit more working space to correct or get it right. The shaping and the pressing caul needs to be accurate though with both methods.

But if its just a timber that matches what is used in the legs then a solid veneer thick enough to put the shaped curve into could be laid onto the rail. You could just spoke shave and scrape / sand it to shape after its assembled. Or lay it to thick before joining it all up. Doing it like that the rail gluing surface is flat . Easy !

The rail could also be angled to optimize the gluing surface so the veneer facing can be the thinnest possibility. Or just have the rails plumb and the veneered facing just ends up as thick as it has to be.

The drawer opening is two horizontal rails set back in . The top one dovetailed into the top of the front legs the bottom one mortised in to the front legs. And the drawer front is made the same as the rails. Horizontal solid veneered with a solid facing then shaped.


I don't understand your web frame idea. Id have to see a drawing I think.

Rob

Thanks Rob.

usually, I can make decent furniture ... provided I stay within my skill set. For instance, all my veneering is 2-2.5 mm veneers clamped to the substrate with a vacuum press. I used cauls ... once ... and swore to never do that again (ignorance and/or lack of skills often has this effect).

Have a look at this little table.

IMG20201109081142.jpg

I made this table by shaping the legs first. Then I rough shaped the aprons and assembled the table with loose tenons and glue. The aprons were a tad bigger than the legs. Then each side was planed and sanded into a single plane. Finally the top was built. What you were suggesting with 0.6 mm veneers is far beyond my capabilities. I know it is a great approach, but I don't have the skills. Just making the leg and its aprons match very closely before assembly would be difficult for me. Removing 0.6 mm uniformly across the apron and then veneering over that curved apron with cauls is something that would, I assure you, result in a bonfire behind my shed. I am not kidding. I have form.

The second approach, applying a thick veneer and then shaping the veneer would require that veneer to be 15-17 mm thick, as the curve at the top of each side is 12-13 mm deep. I have been labouring under the impression that veneers over 2mm thick can cause movement issues. In this instance I'd be gluing a 16 mm veneer to a 30 mm substrate. Are you saying that's OK? Am I missing something here?

My current thinking is to create two sets of two legs joined with vertically oriented grain in the aprons. The aprons will be the same thickness as the legs. Then I'll use four pieces of 45 X 20 mm timber to join these two components together (floating tenons) as per the original sketch.

Louis XV Sketch.jpg

This leaves a hole in the middle for a drawer, which is constructed as a simple box. The drawer will open from either side and each drawer front will be identical to the aprons. The same 46 mm timber used in the legs and aprons will be split in half on the bandsaw to about 20 mm thickness. These will be rough shaped before being fastened to the ends of the drawer. The drawer is fastened in place temporarily (through the top) whilst both drawer fronts are shaped and sanded to match the legs.

As you have suggested, there are several ways to make drawer runners that will either move with the sides or which allow the sides to move independent of the runners. That's the easy part.

Or, ditch the drawer and connect all four aprons to the legs directly.

Rob, I hope you understand just how much folks like me appreciate your contribution on this forum. I make half-decent furniture these days, because folk like you, Wongo, Ian from Sydney, PJT and BobL and several others took the time to share their knowledge. Thanks! I hope to see you here for years to come.

Originally Posted by auscab

It would be made by veneering the apron and not the legs. There is a few ways to do that.

Hi Rob, Just so I'm getting this right, would the rails be made of ply and veneer over the top?.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

The second approach, applying a thick veneer and then shaping the veneer would require that veneer to be 15-17 mm thick, as the curve at the top of each side is 12-13 mm deep. I have been labouring under the impression that veneers over 2mm thick can cause movement issues. In this instance I'd be gluing a 16 mm veneer to a 30 mm substrate. Are you saying that's OK? Am I missing something here?

John. Im saying its not as ideal as a thinner veneer but if the timbers are all nice and dry, and if you use a non water based glue which would also help a little. It would hold up. It'd be a lot better than using a solid side with the grain running the same direction as the legs.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

Rob, I hope you understand just how much folks like me appreciate your contribution on this forum. I make half-decent furniture these days, because folk like you, Wongo, Ian from Sydney, PJT and BobL and several others took the time to share their knowledge. Thanks! I hope to see you here for years to come.

Thanks for that John.
I feel the same for the expert opinions I see here as well in the areas of interest that I'm hungry for. We all keep learning stuff. Its a good space to be in.

Rob

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

Hi Rob, Just so I'm getting this right, would the rails be made of ply and veneer over the top?.

Hi Sam.
The antique stuff wouldn't be ply. Just solid with a sawn veneer if it was pre 1840 . And sliced .6mm veneer if it was post 1840 generally. That sort of furniture shows movement sometimes mainly because at some point in that time it has suffered neglect. Left in storage or a barn maybe. If it was found sitting in the room it was made for there would be more of a possibility of it not moving much at all.
High quality antiques can be seen veneered on nice stable stuff like Mahogany. Cheaper quality veneered on pine sometimes. The cheapest nasty stuff has pine with knots still in it and they veneered over them.
I remember once seeing a real cheap French piece that was nailed together and veneered over the cheapest knotty pine and the timber had moved so that the knots and nails were pushing the veneer up all over the place. A lot of that sort of thing gets thrown away when it gets like that but this one had made it through and someone wanted a price to have it fixed up. I didn't touch it and was glad of that.

You could see ply on 1950s and later stuff. Although Chippendale was known for creating Ply for his gallery work around table tops in the 18th C . Ive not heard of carcase work being made up like that back then but it probably happened occasionally?

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

John. Im saying its not as ideal as a thinner veneer but if the timbers are all nice and dry, and if you use a non water based glue which would also help a little. It would hold up. It'd be a lot better than using a solid side with the grain running the same direction as the legs.

There we go ... I learned something new.

Thanks, Rob. Now I'll ponder how to proceed ... with or without a drawer ...

Hi John

I vaguely remember seeing a table similar to what you are proposing and am wracking my little grey cells trying to remember where - Chateau de Versailles ???

Johns Table.jpg

The rails - front and sides - had three dimensional curves and I couldn't work out how they bent the veneer in compound curves. Best guess was that they used thicker parquetry and then carved the final shape.

Secondly, there was no visible expansion joint between the top and the legs & rails. How - in a table possibly 200 years old?

SWMBO gets annoyed when I spend too long looking at exhibits - usually trying to work out how they were made.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Secondly, there was no visible expansion joint between the top and the legs & rails. How - in a table possibly 200 years old?

SWMBO gets annoyed when I spend too long looking at exhibits - usually trying to work out how they were made.

Hello Graeme,

Her indoors has given up on me. She knows that I am likely to turn upside down a cabinet belonging to someone we just met, if it is interesting.

That Louis XV Tulipwood table appears to have no allowance for expansion anywhere. About 22 years ago I made this little window sill table. It was one of my first pieces.

old cedar windowsill table.jpg

You'll note that the top is glued (and doweled) into position. On the long side the grain in the apron and the top are running in the same direction, so, no problems are anticipated. However, on the short side the grain for the top runs at right angles to the grain in the apron. This piece currently sits in the courtyard. Her Indoors has a row of orchids sitting on it, but it is in great condition. A light rub back and a coat of lacquer would make it new again.

The apron on the short side is only about 200 mm long, and surian cedar is a low movement wood ... my guess is that's why it has given us no grief. The courtyard is outside, so my guess is that it will suffer from bigger temperature/humidity swings than it did when it was indoors.

We can only guess how the maker of that French table built it, because everything is covered in veneer.

This piece is Mid century.
Roughly 1950 to 1960.

The website selling it for $11,500 US shows it all off with some good detail.

| NEWEL


Plywood construction. Nailed drawers. Made in Italy

Interesting is the straight section I put the red arrow along. That makes the veneering along the rails a bit more straight forward.

Untitledaa.jpg
See the Ply in the sides.

Untitledg.jpg



Nailed drawers
Untitledc.jpg
It even has the nail holes showing where the cross banded sections were held in place while glue dried. They were either pulled or punched in then the holes filled with putty.
This solid cross banding is hiding the top to base join. The top would be ply as well. So the only thing doing any moving is the legs. That cross banding would move a tiny amount as well.
Untitledd.jpg

Nasty!

Nice shapely style though.

The French furniture styles have been MASS produced in revival periods many times since the original very rare stuff was first made. In many different quality's of construction as well. From High quality to absolute rubbish. Its gets seen a lot worse than this piece above.
The really bad stuff is falling to pieces usually. Ive seen it nailed together and veneered over knotty pine with the knots pushing the veneer up everywhere and nailed joints falling apart. Edit again . I'm repeating myself .


This stuff were talking about reminds me of a Antique Magazine I have somewhere that has a bookmark in it with a picture of a French Bombe Commode , like these in style.

https://www.google.com/search?client...+Bombe+Commode

But its a super good 18 th century amazing original that has incredible sawn veneers applied to the fronts . Id love to see it again someday. And be able to show it here. I have to still sort my library collection though and its lost in the boxes of books.


Compare the details of the table above to the other table John posted in below link. Much nicer construction.
From what pictures are shown. A view underneath would be nice.
| NEWEL

Rob

Was sitting in my lounge last night, looking at the little coffee table. I was wondering whether, if it had a drawer, it would ever get used.

The answer was no, so the decision was made to simplify matters and eliminate the drawer.

Aprons were glued together and cut to size. Then most of the material to be removed for the curve inwards at the top was cut off on the table saw.

IMG20240522124918.jpg

The piece on the right is fresh off the saw. The piece on the left has been shaped a bit on the linisher.

And here it is, assembled.

IMG20240522151016.jpg

The veneer I plan on using for the top has some voids which will be filled with epoxy and sawdust. I put some sawdust through a flour sifter to get the big chunky bits out. Then the sawdust was stained with a dark mahogany stain. This stained sawdust will be mixed with the sawdust to fill the voids in the veneer. The pic shows some stained and unstained sawdust.

Sawdust.jpg

The aprons are a bit oversized. Tomorrow I'll sand them down flush with the legs and start making the top.

I like this piece. It has lines that are simple, clean and elegant. One day I'll need to make one that has more detail in it ... hopefully without making it as gaudy as a bull's bum sewn up with a bike chain.