Thread: Considerations in drawer "separators"

Lance .

Look at this page .

English Antique chest of drawers - Google Search


The way a cabinet holding drawers was figured out a long time ago . It evolved and changed from 1650 through to 1900 .
different drawer constructions and carcase changes went through changes together. It started out good , got better , peaked about 1830 and got worse after 1880 .

One thing about the page linked is none of those English chests had any of the methods your talking about .

Just the side / strip runners like in yours was done but with a front rail from left to right dovetailed in . Probably with the dovetail left showing in the chest side. That was a very cheap way of doing it .
The side / strip runner just nailed in .
Like you did with the drawer fronts covering the ends of the runner is a good fast way of doing it . A dab of glue at the front of the runner is good , skewing the nails holding the trip is good . What the side of the chest wants to do though is expand and contract . You can get away with a lot just relying on the nails but at some stage its going to need working on . Probably by someone else though if its done well .



The frame idea was never done . Its a method possibly from the machine produced days of the 20th c I think . Not sure where or when. Chest sides can shrink big time . I cant think of a better way of pushing a back right off than a set of frames and shrinking sides . It should be the back moving because the frame would have been glued at its front . I think its perceived that frames may help in laying out all the runners at the same time as assembly is good ?


The solid 3/4 thick idea you see in German stuff of old a bit I think . Probably in the US at times a little . I'm not really sure . You see it in English in smaller cabinets where the drawer dividers are under the standard 3/4 inch . Like the smaller upper drawers in a writing bureau where 3/8 dividers is being used. Not on standard Chest and desk construction though . It would cause more problems than its worth . In English 1680 to 1790 roughly a sort of solid was done but its a thin 3/8 board going from left to right and all the way back .


So those three methods can be used but its not the best way that works the best, and is the reason why I can show a page or more with hundreds of English chests of drawers displayed that have lasted from between 140 to 340 years .

Use them where they need to be if you want to . But if your thinking of building something nice for the house rather than a workshop piece consider one of the well worked out ways .
Or if you want to build any design out of solid, in any style, that's going to expand and contract and not look any different except for the points you know where to inspect that have been designed in for the movement .
And you know when your looking, your doing something some bloke back in 1700 to 1800 was doing , showing a young fella how it worked . That's very enjoyable .


Rob

The 1820s 30s roughly method was to dovetail the rails into the sides of the chest. All chests of drawers with plain sides like this were dovetailed, and the rail left sitting out a little ( 4mm ) so the front of the dovetail is either cut off and the the chest side has a 4mm strip glued over at the end . Or the rail goes back in flush to leave the front of the dovetail showing. Not very common.
The chest sides were cut to receive the 2/3 of side deep dovetail 1/2 " and behind that a 1/3 of side deep trench 3/4" high x 1/4" deep .
The standard 3/4" high front rail and runners were plowed to take a 1/4" slot on the inside edge.
The fronts of the rails had a tenon cut to fit that slot .

When assembling the chest.
The top and bottom of carcase is dovetailed the normal way , then glued together . The front horizontal rails glued in . The left and right runners glued at the fronts only . You could clamp at the backs and let it dry at that then measure and plane the dust boards to slide in neatly from behind. They just slide in and wedge tight at the front . Or a touch of glue at front could be added .

So the length of the runners does not go right to the back of the rebate that's going to take the back boards . You leave it 3/4" to 1" back from the back. There's a couple of ways to do the back so that rebate could be 1/4' 1/2' or 3/4"
Three measurements but two ways

Its the gap that's left between a runner end and the back board where you would be feeling or measuring if you could for any movement . The dust boards hold the runners firmly in place in the trench . The sides of the chest of drawers can go back and forwards through the summer / winter with heating movement . Its fixed at its front so the movement just happens at the back and isn't noticed.

IMG_3305.JPG

This so called 1820/ 30s way is very similar to how it was done in most English chests from 1680 on to 1800 . The chest side looked the same . The front rail looked the same at its front , but at its back it had a rebate on the upper side , no slot.
The runner didn't exist at all like that though . The dust board went right across into the trench nice fit to the side. And a long carefully fitted planed wedge of a stick was placed in and hammered into the gap forcing the dust board up tight . No glue . The sides could move . The dust board and its stick either side was kept away from the back 1". Its problem for later restorers was, If the drawers wore through , its a hell of a job to fix . Its amazing how many you see that are doing well though .

I reckon the funny thing is the naming of the dust board . It happens to catch the dust from the wearing of the drawer above . And stops it ending up in the clothes below . It'd be such a tiny amount you'd hardly notice it taking out your clothes. You really do notice it when you get a chest that hasn't had the drawers out for 50 years . I think its a name given by either Antique dealers or what the cabinet makers called it because it sounded good to the clients . You got to call it something . Its there to hold the runners apart and in place though . And it does it perfectly .

They started cutting corners around the 1880s and in Aussie stuff you see the dust boards getting thinner at first . Not surviving just because they were touched a few to many times . Then they disappeared and a nail or screw held the runner to the chest sides at the back . The trench in the side went and a few rubbed glue blocks just glued to the chest side held it up . In cheaper stuff chest carcase sides went down to 3/8" thick and the runners started getting glued to the carcase sides ! Every chest has split sides from that point on .

The good method like this produces the best way to handle movement and keeps materials to a minimum for the quality. It also keeps the unit reasonably light . There's a bit of extra joinery going on . Ive read that in the 18th C that Labour was cheap and materials were the expensive thing . In good later stuff you see plywood dust boards . In the older stuff it was usually just Pine or Deal .

The drawers went though some big changes in construction as well . With drawer bottoms going from front to back across the short distance 18th c to being changed to the long distance around the 1790s. This made big changes to how the drawer sides to bottom was done . And meant sides became a little thicker with a slot having to be put in to take the bottom . This was a problem for a while , then the drawer slip was invented and added getting rid of that problem slot which made the side so weak .

Fine big early ci 1680 Oak lined drawers with thin sides are a pretty amazing thing to behold and study . Sawn Walnut veneer fronted glued onto Deal with an Oak top edge is how they should look. The drawer bottoms always have gaps and the drawers were loose paper lined at the bottom or paper added , glued on the under side , normally a few times .
Queen Anne ones have domed tops to the sides . The thin Hard English Oak and the nails holding the bottoms and the age of the things . With a smell that never fails to Impress . Bldy amazing !

Rob

Rob, thank-you so much for your treasure trove of an answer. I have several followup questions already after a cursory read, but will digest it fully, and try and do some further reading before responding.

Originally Posted by LanceC

I'm trying to understand the design considerations of different types of drawer separators, for lack of a better term, beyond pure aesthetics. To narrow the discussion, I'm only referring to wooden drawers on wooden runners.

Just to get back to the basics Lance. The older quality method I mentioned above . Its just done on chests, desks or cabinets where the side of the chest is grain running down from top to bottom . This is something that came in when Joiners and their guild system became un fashionable with their panel and frame ways on furniture and Cabinet Making was born in England . Roughly speaking .

The basics of the construction is that the front rails are dovetailed in L&R and there is a trench behind that L&R.
So we could call it the DT /Trench way . DTT ?
The Carcase is dovetailed top and bottom . Just like a box . There's a number of ways that's done too . It can be solid tops and botts . Or just a top front and back rail with a gap in between , same at bottom .





So the DTT way can either have runners with slots and dust boards or the older Full dustboard and wedge to run the drawers on .

If your not going that far and want less time consuming methods though , and your still using solid wood sides , then you can do away with the trench but still DT the front rails in . The runners can be glued at front and nailed at back . As long as your using suitable side material that's well dry and stable you wont have a problem . Typical cabinet timbers supplied kiln dried are a good start.

If you go solid Panel and frame construction in the sides , or veneered ply or chipboard sides then the side shrinkage cant be a problem and there are better ways to fix in runners for these systems . Basically more glue and nails or screws . Nothing on the panel if you went panel and frame of course.

Look at any furniture in the period of quality I wrote of about chests , desks and cabinets with side grain orientation up and down and you can see other types of furniture like side boards, Tables with drawers, table desks with drawers, side tables and writing tables and the side grain direction is the other way around . The expansion / shrinkage thing doesn't exist , if it does its the other war around and over a smaller distance mostly. The DDT is not seen in any of that stuff.
It'll be DT front rails . If you go way back to the panel and frame days the front rails of chests were tenoned in not the DT.

Rob

Here's some pics of some of my past builds where I went DT front rails and nailed runners .

I have pics I was looking for of a nice early Oak original chest I owned which was made the same . Cant find them atm though .

This Pair was designed , drawn to scale then built.
Their from Plantation Mahogany with Oak secondary timbers. The drawer fronts veneered in sawn veneer I cut from the boards . Good way of getting a matched front and I'm glueing down 3mm thick veneers which makes it fun and easy. Interesting little design is the splayed foot done that way . Taken from a ci 1800 original I have sitting around .

This is with fist carcase just glued up . You can see the dovetails cut in the inside sides of the second one ready to go .
IMG_8826.JPG


See the gap left at back of runner for shrinkage . Runners glued at front and skew nailed at back . Nail gun skewed.

IMG_8831.JPG

See the added Mahogany strip front edge of side below. And in top pic how rails are left sticking out at glue up to create the rebate for that strip

IMG_8901.JPG


See how when your building to a clients color you have to go past some nice looking color results on the way . I did like the end colour result though .

IMG_9101.JPGIMG_9104.JPGIMG_9146.JPGIMG_9149.JPG





This job below was Proper DTT with the earlier full dust board and wedge. So it looks like solid boards that the drawer slides on , Its a half 3/8board and half 3/8 wedge. You don't see it until you get down and look under or just feel for it in this type of build .

The rails are DT in flush and an applied single D mould was glued on top, its taped on with HH Glue on the bottom two rails in this pic.
img102.jpg
Known as a double domed Bureau Bookcase. They were normally seen in Walnut 1680 to 1720 sort of thing. This was done in Hemlock pine . Mirrors in Antique recycled old silver backed stuff.
img103.jpgimg101.jpgimg100.jpg


Rob