Thread: Ironbark medieval/rectory dining table

Originally Posted by Canoath

........ My main redgum stack collapsed when I delicately tried to retrieve a 4x2 from near the bottom of the pile for this table's feet......

Had that happen more than once!

Originally Posted by IanW

There are no certainties in woodwork, Canoath - we can only say what's likely to happen. Given the slightly plastic nature of PVA glues (when warm, particularly) and the low-porosity finish you applied, you might not have trouble for years, or possibly at all. When the glue does come under stress, it may give enough to relieve it, in which case all will be fine because the bolts should have enough give in them to hold the line. If the glue strength does exceed the wood's capacity to absorb the strain, the top will crack/split along any lines of weakness - time will tell. Sorry to cause you angst, I hesitated to point it out at first, but it's probably better to be prepared, just in case! In my ignorance, I made a couple of classic blunders (like glueing the panels into frame & panel doors ) when I started out. Some took a while to show me the error of my ways, but most did eventually. As they say, experience is a bad teacher because it gives you the lesson after the test.

I could never convince my old pot that you can't stop wood from moving if it really wants to. One of the last significant pieces he made was a table for my youngest sister, from some Yellow Stringy he'd cut on the farm. Despite my advise to the contrary, he glued three wide, solid battens across the underside, and no mucking about with wimpy PVA glue for him, he stuck those suckers real good, with Araldite, and added about 50 screws to each for good measure. Fortunately, my sister is into 'shabby chic' and thinks the several large, longitudinal splits in her table are terribly 'authentic'. The top of that table is only about 17mm thick, to keep the weight within manageable bounds, & I'm not sure he waited the minimum "year per inch thickness" before starting construction, but it sure makes a classic illustration of what not to do to a table top.

Cheers,

So Ian what construction method do you recommend to allow the boards to expand on contract?

I imagine that the cross member would be slotted and the bolts screwed into the underside of the table and lighty screwed with washers so as to allow movement.

Most of the time on this sort of table I just let gravity hold the top in place with some locating pegs so it cant slide around . This means the base has a little more to it to brace it better . Like an extra two stretcher rails under the top dovetailed to both base ends . I can screw the top down if I'm having problems with a twist in the top which sometimes happens but just sitting in place is good on such heavy table tops.
With the bread board ends the traditional way was big haunched tenons evenly spaced , from the side it looks like a tongue and groove, they can be pegged through the top .

Canoath's top will possibly be fine , The glue being PVA and its not glued right the way across. A glue with no give and done the full width and a problem would probably show up soon.
Screwing the Bread board end on isn't so bad either . The modern screws are fantastic. The old slotted head things we used to put up with were like they were made of cheese . A lot of BBE tops I have just through pegged on the BBE . Big 10 or 12.7 mm pegs made from the same wood. Glued on as well as slightly skew pegged . They tend to stay glued in the middle and you see some movement out at the ends. Im living with one of my early ones so get to watch it shift around . I worked on an original 1670s table with BBE fixed on like this once . I have just glued and biscuited some BBE tops together at times . If done properly They don't come back for repair , they move , stay tight in the middle and show movement out at the ends with PVA or titebond . What I have seen come back is a loose BBE from slack use of biscuits where not enough were put in and the application of glue was rushed with air pockets holding the glue back . Biscuits and pegs are good . If its just biscuits then a good way is two layers , A high run 7mm down from the top and a low run 7mm up from the bottom .

Rob

Originally Posted by Kidbee

So Ian what construction method do you recommend to allow the boards to expand on contract?

I imagine that the cross member would be slotted and the bolts screwed into the underside of the table and lighty screwed with washers so as to allow movement.

Rob's covered it pretty much as I would've, Kidbee. As he said, the base might have been better as a self-supporting structure with a couple of rails between the top members of the legs. Using the top as part of the structure saves some weight, but complicates things if you want to be able to disassemble the table (a good idea for a monster like this one, tables inevitably have to be moved!). Completing the base with a couple of rails dovetailed, bridle-jointed or just half-lapped & screwed to the top rails of the legs would simplify adding the top. If the rails & stretchers joining the legs are pegged or screwed, you can knock the base down into much more manageable pieces. A few 3/8" coach screws should be adequate to locate the top & hold it to the base if the table is lifted to move it around. You probably don't need to slot the bolt holes, just keep them reasonably close to the centre, & make the through-holes generously over-sized (my 'quick & dirty' solution is to simply enlarge the holes in the direction of top movement by pushing the drill bit side to side as I drill out the hole). For my workbench, I just used a single coach screw in the centre at each end, which avoids any concerns about the top expanding or contracting. The bench is no lightweight & it gets dragged around a bit, but the single screws have so far hung in there.

While you can get very fancy & use sliding dovetails to attach the top, it would be a lot of work & not really necessary on a refectory style table. You could use wooden buttons, but again, not really necessary with this design.

I've not seen ends pegged on as Rob described that I'm aware of, but probably have & didn't know what I was looking at! Sounds like a very worthwhile idea to file for future use. Skewed pegs would probably have as much or more holding power as screws driven straight into end-grain, and I can see how they might absorb the lateral movement of the top a bit, too. I like methods that have stood the test of time....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

While you can get very fancy & use sliding dovetails to attach the top, it would be a lot of work & not really necessary on a refectory style table.

I've not seen ends pegged on as Rob described that I'm aware of, but probably have & didn't know what I was looking at! Sounds like a very worthwhile idea to file for future use. Skewed pegs would probably have as much or more holding power as screws driven straight into end-grain, and I can see how they might absorb the lateral movement of the top a bit, too. I like methods that have stood the test of time....

Cheers,

Ive seen a sliding dovetail top on base Ian where the piece dove tailed is the top of the assembled glued up ends . Id never inspected one up close before this one .It was on a Repro but I know the guys who had it made had a lot of original Spanish 18th C tables over the years. They may have copied that ? The Spanish did the sliding dovetail all the time in the 18th C . You see it on old originals like the ones with the metal stretcher Irons here
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=A...w=1120&bih=571

When sliding the top across the dovetails to fit it, it was very loose until it got close to its end . Then it tightened up. Much better than tapping your life away on a something that's tight all the way across .


With the through pegged on ones your limited to the width of the BBE . Much wider than 80 or 100 mm and its getting hard to do .
They do work very well though . My table was loaned to a guy for ten months . He leased it for using in an apartment that was for sale over a winter period . The heating was on high through the coldest months so any client that walked in felt comfy . The table top shrank so badly a green pea could have just about fallen through the crack that opened in the middle!! When I got it back I watched the gap close up over a few months. I was quite pleased with that. Bldy Amazed really ! The BBE's with pegs and glue were not bothered at all .

Here is some pics of it.
Its Elm , known for its movement . The top is two boards wide. And its got a good dose of my fake ageing , including all the fake borer holes. See in the right board in the picture on the bottom left how the middle stayed put and the outside of the board moved.

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I'm currently in the US and visited the Old Sturbridge Town historical village today. The buildings and furnishings are mainly early 19th C era original and reproduction. A number of houses had tables with tops made of 2 or 3 boards with breadboard ends. The breadboard ends were quite narrow and attached by just a tongue and groove and fixed through into the ends of the boards with a few large cut nails. (Getting photos off the camera is not working at the moment)

Originally Posted by Fuzzie

I'm currently in the US and visited the Old Sturbridge Town historical village today.

I looked it up after you posted and yeah, would love to visit there. The nearest thing I can think of here that would come close would be Sovereign Hill in Ballarat.


Going back a fortnight, after the first two coats of varnish, I was disappointed about a couple of imperfections in the epoxy layer and the orange peel finish of the varnish. I decided first to rub back to the epoxy layer in a couple of spots and apply fresh epoxy then rub the whole lot back to start the varnish layers again and I'm glad I did. The blemishes disappeared.
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Once epoxy was cured and the top sanded to 320grit I started again, this time using roll n tip with a foam roller and bristle brush. It was coming out well except the varnish wouldn't flow flat. I wasn't too worried as I think I ended up with 6 build up coats but I needed the final coat to flow flat. Part of the reason I believe is due to the bristle brush not being the finest. I did try some thinned with turps as per instructions but still couldn't tip the varnish without brush strokes remaining in the finish. I had foam brushes on hand but haven't had the best results from them in the past. Oh and dust was a major issue too.
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After the build up coats but before the planned last coat went on I decided to prop the table on a couple of saw horses to make the top near vertical. As precarious as it looks it remained in place whilst I worked the top.
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I was going to build a tent over it like a Dexter kill room but couldn't be bothered. I tempted fate, wet sanded, closed doors, tack ragged and sprayed the varnish on. I messed up gun settings with too much a flow rate and stuffed it up. Plus dust invariably found it's way to stick on to the finish.

So back to sanding again and a rethink.

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I just realised those last two photos are from the prep for the final coat which after spraying and tipping with a brush to remove orange peel still produced a dusty result with brushstrokes.
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I panicked at this stage and posted on the finishing forum and at the same time came up with the idea that a wax finish would be the way to go. So I wet sanded again and tried a small spot with some U-Beaut traditional wax. Convinced this would be the best way to obtain some gloss without dust entrapment I went ahead applying the wax to the whole top.
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Unfortunately I couldn't finish off the wax. No matter how much machine and hand buffing and polishing I kept getting swirls and haze. Two things led to this I believe now. Or probably three if we throw in inexperience. Firstly the wax had separated and instructions warns of this. I've had this pot for a couple of years and it should've been melted and and mixed before application. Secondly, I reckon my couple of applications were too thick and the wax probably didn't dry as much as it should've.
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The best I could do was leave a haze on the top. I decided to use automotive cutting compound followed by a cut n polish and then turtle wax. The before and after shows an improvement.
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I was amazed at the amount of scratches left in the top which produces the remaining haze. Due to the pattern of these scratches I'm pretty sure that they were caused by the wet sanding which was done with 800 then 1200 grit. Whilst finer than the 320 or 400 white paper I use on the longboards and random orbital, the wet and dry paper feels sharper to the touch. I dunno, we're nearly there.

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You could try 2000 and 4000 grit papers on your ROS, there won't be many scratches left after that.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks LGS, I'll look into that. I can only get up to 1500 locally but I haven't tried online. I've read that some boat builders may wet sand then buff to get dust and bugs off the final coat on brightwork and still get a smooth high gloss. I thought 1200 might get me there but clearly not. I'll look around online and see what I can get from a body shop supplier or similar. At the moment the top has been finished off with Mastertouch wax and the other gloss areas received a satin varnish. I'll hopefully post that update later tonight.

There's a guy here on the forums who sells high grit sandpaper discs. The Sandpaper Man I think, maybe someone can confirm this?

Regards,

Rob

If you have a Supercheap Auto nearby they should stock 2000 grit. It’s fairly mediocre paper but will do the job.

You shouldn’t need 2000 grit in finishing though. 1200 grit as a max to get the bigger scratches out, then car buffing/polishing compounds slot in nicely from there. Choose a pro-level car finishing compound, not a brand like Turtle as it will have silicon which will prevent respraying. Meguiars is good - buff hard with a medium and then a fine compound immediately after 1200 or 1500 and you will get the gloss you need.

General comment, watching your finishing reminds me why I like spraying pre-catalysed lacquer. You don’t get the dust problems you do with spraying varnish (polyurethane), and it’s a finish more amendable to retouching, buffing and generally frigging with after the last coat.

Re your comments on brushmarks - the best way to stop them with varnish is to use Penetrol - a very effective additive for preventing brush and lap marks.

Cheers
Arron

Originally Posted by Arron

Re your comments on brushmarks - the best way to stop them with varnish is to use Penetrol - a very effective additive for preventing brush and lap marks.

Interesting Arron - I've only ever use Penetrol for it's secondary purpose which is stopping rust dead in its tracks. It is absolutely excellent for that. Coated some roofing sheets with it maybe 3½ years ago (after knocking the loose rust back with a wire brush on a drill). The sheets are stored outside, stacked up, and have not deteriorated even a little bit (as of a year ago, anyway).

Originally Posted by Canoath

I just realised those last two photos are from the prep for the final coat which after spraying and tipping with a brush to remove orange peel still produced a dusty result with brushstrokes.
WP_20180414_15_58_30_Pro.jpg

I panicked at this stage and posted on the finishing forum and at the same time came up with the idea that a wax finish would be the way to go. So I wet sanded again and tried a small spot with some U-Beaut traditional wax. Convinced this would be the best way to obtain some gloss without dust entrapment I went ahead applying the wax to the whole top.
WP_20180415_14_13_03_Pro.jpgWP_20180415_15_59_41_Pro.jpg

Unfortunately I couldn't finish off the wax. No matter how much machine and hand buffing and polishing I kept getting swirls and haze. Two things led to this I believe now. Or probably three if we throw in inexperience. Firstly the wax had separated and instructions warns of this. I've had this pot for a couple of years and it should've been melted and and mixed before application. Secondly, I reckon my couple of applications were too thick and the wax probably didn't dry as much as it should've.
WP_20180415_18_52_16_Pro.jpgWP_20180415_20_22_09_Pro.jpg


The best I could do was leave a haze on the top. I decided to use automotive cutting compound followed by a cut n polish and then turtle wax. The before and after shows an improvement.
WP_20180416_13_23_21_Pro.jpgWP_20180416_12_27_41_Pro.jpgWP_20180416_14_23_43_Pro.jpg


I was amazed at the amount of scratches left in the top which produces the remaining haze. Due to the pattern of these scratches I'm pretty sure that they were caused by the wet sanding which was done with 800 then 1200 grit. Whilst finer than the 320 or 400 white paper I use on the longboards and random orbital, the wet and dry paper feels sharper to the touch. I dunno, we're nearly there.

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Seems like this project is pushing your limits right to the end but its going to look extra good.