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24th October 2021, 01:17 PM #16Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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Yes, madrone bark is something else. The wood is not common and even in North America few know of it. I have neighbours who haven't heard of it, although they probably have seen it and not known what it was.
Well, my first major mistake. I was routing the rebate on the aprons that will form the "waist" of the table and I made it too wide by setting the router bit on my router table too high. It should have been 9 mm and I made it 13 mm. I have a long and embarrassing explanation for how that happened that I won't share.
Nevertheless, the madrone worked beautifully at the router. A few shallow passes and the cuts were crisp and smooth with little tear out or chipping.
Apron rebate - 1.jpeg
I made a 1/4 round cutter for a scratch stock to round over the apron rebate arrises. That worked worked well too.
Apron scratch stock cutter - 1.jpeg
And then all rounded over:
Aprons rounded over - 1.jpeg
But then I test assembled and saw this. The bottom of the rebate should have been level with the line on the corner of the leg. Oh no! What have I done!
Apron rebate too wide 2 - 1.jpeg
One option is to work with the new rebate width but that would require thinning the legs and aprons and stretchers and...... Not doing it.
The other option is to order more stock and remake the aprons. The aprons aren't difficult to make. Fortunately a local supplier has just enough so I ordered it. It won't be a perfect color match but I can deal with that later. It should be here in a couple of days.
I'm not happy about my dumb mistake but it is not the end of the world. While I wait I'm planing and spokeshaving the bandsaw marks off the legs and making the stretchers.
And here is one more pic of an off cut of some quarter sawn madrone after hand planing. The piece is about 100 mm wide. It has a subtle pattern that I like very much.
QS madrone - 1.jpeg
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24th October 2021 01:17 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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8th November 2021, 01:04 PM #17Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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I'm almost done re-making the aprons to their proper dimensions and fitting them to the legs. Here is one corner. That little pyramid tip at the outside corner of the leg will be cut down and rounded over to match a roundover yet to come on the rebates. I'm going very slowly here since ideally all the miters need to meet neatly at a single point. Take a shaving or two, test fit, take a shaving or two, test fit. If it doesn't seem to be going well, have some tea or go walk the dog or take a nap and come back to it. There is a lot going on in this small volume and it isn't always obvious to me where wood needs to be removed.
Ming corner joint V 2.0 - 1.jpeg
I've started thinking ahead to finish treatments. Right now I'm leaning toward shellac, either an amber or a warm reddish brown because that will be similar to the madrone as it ages. I've ordered some naturally colored flake versions and I also have some dyes and plenty of scraps to play with.
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10th November 2021, 01:15 PM #18Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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- 234
On to the stretchers. These will have spear point mortices on the leg faces. I'm not really sure what to call them but I hope you can get the idea from the pictures.
I had already cut the main mortises for them on the legs so I need to fit the tenons to those mortises and also fit the spear point miters to their mortises. The joint looks like this while working to fit. The pencil smudges tell me where the high spots are that I need to pare. The tenons will be hide glued at assembly. For scale the tenons are nominally 24 mm long x 18 mm x 9 mm.
Stretcher joinery rough - 1.jpeg
Here is one 99% fit. Just some minor scraping of the miter needed to close it up.
Stretcher joinery almost fit - 1.jpeg
From a meter away the fit looks pretty good. The stretcher profile will be eased and beaded but that is for much later.
Short side stretcher - 1.jpeg
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15th November 2021, 12:21 PM #19Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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- 234
I finished the stretcher joinery. Here is a dry fit. There is still a lot of shaping and finish work to go but I'm setting the base aside for now. Instead I'll start the frame and panel top tomorrow.
stretchers done - 1.jpeg
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18th November 2021, 07:52 PM #20
I lost track of this thread for a while. It's coming along nicely and I'm looking forward to seeing it with the top.
Cheers, Bob the labrat
Measure once and.... the phone rings!
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20th November 2021, 12:55 PM #21Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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Thanks Bob. I'm very much looking forward to the top being done, too. Maybe before Christmas?
I have started on the corner joinery for the top frame. I still have some fitting up of the miters, and then a whole lot more joinery to come.
Top frame - 1.jpeg
Top frame - 1 (1).jpeg
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25th November 2021, 01:18 PM #22Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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I had some problems finishing up the corner joints since I had undercut a few mortise side walls when I chiseled them out. I re-leveled them and made up the gap by gluing on some veneer. Annoying and not pretty but it won't be visible and structurally it will be fine. So it goes.
The rest of the mitered corner joint includes a mortise at 45 degrees to the tenons that will hold a tapered key called a shachi sen. This is one of the uncommon joinery methods i allude to in the title. This one is Japanese not Chinese, but in any case not well known in the West.
Tapping in the key drives the corner tenons away from each other and deeper into their respective mortises. It is an incredibly solid joint without glue. Here is how I started the layout the half mortise for the shachi sen.. The layout is identical on the other part.
mitered box joint - 1 (1).jpeg
Then the lines are carried across the tenon cheek at 45 degrees. Then a small taper is added and sawn to the taper line.
mitered box joint - 2.jpeg
And then pared flat. The tricky part is the very narrow entry. Small saws and chisels are helpful. I have a 1.5 mm chisel that saved me. And a paring guide. There really is no way to do this joint with machines as far as I can tell.
mitered box joint - 9.jpeg
And some other useful tools, especially the 9 mm cranked neck chisel (kote nomi)
mitered box joint - 15.jpeg
mitered box joint - 12.jpeg
I checked frequently for flat. This little Japanese square is handy but other small straight edges work, too.
mitered box joint - 16.jpeg
And done. Here are four of the eight parts.
mitered box joint - 21.jpeg
And when the joint is assembled this is how it looks from the inside. The key is tapped in and then either trimmed flush or left proud so it an be tapped in further if the members shrink away and loosen, or grabbed and removed for disassembly.
mitered box joint - 22.jpeg
It might not be obvious how this joint works from my pix so let me know if it isn't clear.
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26th November 2021, 10:22 PM #23
Looking better all the time.
I couldn't visualize how that corner joint works so did a search and found a page of animated GIFs that show how Japanese joints go together.
If you're like me and can't see it then have a look at the 9th one down on this page:
These Mesmerizing GIFs Illustrate the Art of Traditional Japanese Wood Joinery | ArchDailyCheers, Bob the labrat
Measure once and.... the phone rings!
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27th November 2021, 01:52 AM #24
I think you'll like the work of Dylan Iwakuni in Japan. He uses these joints in all his work.... But they are far more monumental
Edit.... Also Chantarokichi.....
On the rail, I watch a lot of Han period drama from China. I've seen the rails having a cloth cover. I assume it's to make it act as storage and be neat?
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27th November 2021, 04:25 AM #25Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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Bob, yes, that is the joint: (箱相欠き車知栓仕口 Hako-aikaki-shachi-sen-shikuchi). Chris Hall wrote a 45 page tutorial on how to lay and cut it out that I used as a guide. He called it a "mitered box joint."
I have seen some of Dylan Iwakuni's work before and it is fabulous. If I ever get this table finished, then next project is a Japanese timber framed garden shed. I have the timbers drying now and they should be ready to start working in January. Maybe that will be another thread.
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27th November 2021, 12:36 PM #26Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
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- Oregon, USA
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The joinery for the top panel is the most unusual feature of this build. It is similar to this schematic of another Ming table.
Top panel joinery - 1.jpeg
On mine there there will two panels separated by a small gap to allow for seasonal wood movement. The panels are only 12 mm thick and are set into a groove on the mitered breadboard ends but overlay and extend to the edges of the long arms of the top frame. The panels are supported and stiffened by battens attached with sliding dovetails and sliding dovetail clamps on the long arms of the frame. The battens are also tenoned into the long arms of the frame. Honestly, I'm not sure I can pull this off but I'll try.
I did the tapered sliding dovetails today. I left them long and will cut them back for the tenons and to fit inside the frame.
Top panel joinery - 1 (1).jpegTop panel joinery - 3.jpegTop panel joinery - 4.jpeg
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27th November 2021, 12:47 PM #27
Crikey, that is a challenge.
Cutting the long arms of the frame is going to take some care.
Quick question if you don't mind - why the small gap between the two boards forming the top panel - seems to me it wouldn't matter if they were glued together, as you have allowed for movement in the short arms....
Or have I misunderstood your description...
Congratulations on this project and your progress so far - it is inspiring
Tom.... some old things are lovely
Warm still with the life of forgotten men who made them ........................D.H. Lawrence
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27th November 2021, 07:40 PM #28
The range of joints fog my mind!
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28th November 2021, 06:00 AM #29Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
- Location
- Oregon, USA
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- 234
It is a good question, Tom. None of the pictures or construction drawings of Ming tables that I have seen incorporate a gap in the middle. I don't know why more of the Ming tables with solid tops and mitered breadboard ends didn't/haven't blown up. Maybe most have unless they are in museums with climate control.
But the issue in this particular construction is the mitered frame corner. After assembly, half of the visible corner will include the short arm of the frame and the other half is the top panel. If the top was solid, when it expands it would open a gap at the miter. To prevent that, I've put a lip on the outer edge of the long arm, and a complementary rebate on the lower long edge of the top panel. That traps the panel within the perimeter of the frame. Thus I need a gap between the two half panels to accommodate any swelling in the humid season. Around here that is now through April so I'll make the gap pretty small, maybe nothing. In the summer when relative humidity here drops to the low 30%, I estimate a gap of about 3 mm will form.
Here is a Sketchup image of my table that maybe better depicts the construction:
Ming table top.jpg
I've used an internal gap like this before in a small bench I made that also had a top captured by the bench frame. I like the way it looks with bookmatched boards.
bench - 1.jpeg
Of course I could also have gone with a single board of veneer over ply or other stable substrate but that was farther from the historical construction methods than I wanted to go.
And woodPixel, I wake up in the middle of the night wondering whether I've missed something and I spend my dog walking time thinking through alternate methods and solutions. But I love these kind of joinery puzzles. I think of it as "whitewater woodworking." Even if I screw up and get tipped out of the boat, I've still had fun.
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30th November 2021, 01:28 PM #30Senior Member
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- Nov 2020
- Location
- Oregon, USA
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- 234
I made a fixture and routed the waste between the "dovetail clamps" (so called by my reference books) on the long arms. I hate using a router because of the noise and mess and chance of doing something really bad really fast. I need to get over that because sometimes it is the right tool for the job. I think this was the right time. I could have done it with hand tools but I'd still be doing it next week and I wouldn't have done it well.
The dovetail clamps (the peninsulas between the routed areas) will become extensions of the tapered sliding dovetails on the battens. I also cut mortises below the dovetail clamps for tenons still to come on the ends of the battens. Tomorrow I hope to mark and cut those batten tenons and start matching the dovetail clamp bevels to the sliding dovetail on the battens.
top panel joinery - 1 (2).jpegtop panel joinery - 2 (1).jpeg
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