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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
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    Oregon, USA
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    Default A Ming era table with uncommon joinery

    New member here. I was encouraged to show work in progress so here is what I'm working on now. This is a small table based on this picture of a historical piece:
    IMG_7155.jpg

    Mine may or may not have the stretchers, or I might use humpback stretchers, more like this:
    table with humpback stretchers2.jpg
    Here is a half scale mockup in scraps, without stretchers, to see about proportions. Looks too spindly to me. I'm still on the fence about stretchers or no. Stretchers will make it more sturdy, but I'm not convinced about the look. Form vs function. I'm happy to get your suggestions.

    IMG_6989.jpg


    In any case, the key interest for me is the mitered corner joinery with a sliding dovetail. Schematically something like this:



    Screen Shot 2021-08-01 at 1.00.33 PM.jpg


    And here is where I am after a few trials. There is still more shaping to go and I have another interesting modification but that deserves a separate post.

    4E74B056-4CA8-4F04-8270-66C7DADB93C1_1_105_c.jpeg

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Woodstock (Cowra)
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    74
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    Default

    Now there is a challenging joint, lots of patience required and sneaking up on the fit, look forward to more progress pics.
    What timber are you using?
    The person who never made a mistake never made anything

    Cheers
    Ray

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    231

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    The timber is another interesting story. I'm using madrone, also called Pacific Madrone, Arbutus menziesii. It grows only along the Pacific Northwest coast of the USA. Think California, Oregon, and Washington. I live in Oregon where it grows all around but never gets very large and is rarely used for furniture. Mostly it is used for small carved or turned work because it is hard and fine grained and holds an edge, but not highly figured. I was able to find some timbers barely large enough for this project.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    Here is the rest of the leg corner joinery. I borrowed and adapted this construction from Chris Hall, who used this Japanese joinery for his interpretation of a Ming dining table several years ago. Ming Inspiration – The Carpentry Way

    Ming table tops were generally frame and panels. The frame was mortised and attached to the stub tenons on the tops of the legs with fish glue or lacquer or rice paste; whatever was available to the makers in 16th century China.

    Chris Hall decided to borrow a Japanese joinery feature called a yatoi sen to mechanically attach the top frame to the leg. A yatoi sen is a loose tenon with a dovetail on one end, inserted into a mortise and tightened down with tapered wedges. In Hall's adaptation, the dovetail is captured by a female dovetail that is split between two halves of the frame miter. Pictures explain it better than words.

    Here is a yatoi sen and its mortise on the top of a scrap leg to test the concept. I did not insert the two tapered wedges but perhaps you can see where they go and how they work to drive the sen to the end of its mortise. (Sorry, mortice!)

    IMG_7096.jpgIMG_7097.jpg

    The dovetailed end fits into and is captured by its split mortise on the underside of the two arms of the mitered top frame:

    IMG_7098.jpgIMG_7099.jpgIMG_7107.jpg

    In sum: capture the dovetailed sen into the top frame, then insert the sen into the legs, then snug the sens home with tapered wedges.

    There is more fun mechanical joinery involved in the top frame and panel.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    OK, a rather scary looking family photo of the nearly finished corner joinery in the madrone. I still have to bevel the edges of the male sliding dovetails that lock the apron tenons, and general clean up.

    IMG_7306.jpg

    Another view of a mortise for the yatoi sen that shows more of the character of the madrone.

    IMG_7309.jpg

    And here is an apron end with the female sliding dovetail part roughed out and waiting final fitting and shaping.

    IMG_7317.jpgCEA82900-2BBA-4474-934A-E8158334FEF7_1_105_c.jpeg

    That's where I ended today.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Adelaide - outer south
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    67
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    935

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    That joint reminds me of a puzzle box.

    The angle of the wedge cavities looks as if the wedges would force the loose piece outwards. Is anything holding the bottom of it in place or does it just work?

    I know it's not my table but I think it looks better with the rail. Somehow it seems to add substance that is needed further down the legs but retains the overall effect of fineness by not adding bulk.
    Cheers, Bob the labrat

    Measure once and.... the phone rings!

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    Thanks, Bob. The wedges shouldn't force the loose tenon outward, just toward one end of its mortice. This is a fairly common joinery technique in Japan with many variations. Here is one from a Japanese joinery book. Mine differs by being layed out on the corner of the leg rather than the face, but the principle is the same.
    yatoi sen - 1.jpeg

    And I agree with you about the stretcher. I played around with a full scale mockup of the front elevation and I think I'm going with this.
    front elevation - 1.jpeg

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
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    Oregon, USA
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    I thought I would show how I'm doing the sliding dovetail that is crosswise to the apron tenon. For the male side I started by sawing and chiseling a platform within the mortice for the tenon that is 55 mm long by 15 mm wide by 3 mm deep. I determined the size by examining the drawing of a historical joint and then adapted it to my chosen leg dimensions, chisels sizes on hand, some experience, and some guesswork. To make the bevel, I chose a 3:1 slope. That is, I inset the neck of the dovetail 1 mm for a 3 mm tall dovetail. That is about 18.4 degrees. I don't thing dovetail angle matters much over a fairly wide range and this was easy to lay out. But rather small.

    One side of the sliding dovetail is flush with the leg face. The side inside the mortise I tapered from 15 mm at the bottom to 13 mm at the top. Again, I mostly just guessed at these numbers.

    Then I made a simple paring guide that could be clamped inside the mortice and used that to pare the bevel.

    male sliding dovetail - 1.jpeg

    I flipped the guide over and did the other side at the taper angle. (not shown). When nearly finished it looked like this.

    three way corner joint - 15.jpeg

    For the female side, after laying it out I could use a sawing guide and a dozuki saw to make the bevels and some waste cuts.

    female sliding dovetail - 1 (2).jpegthree way corner joint - 1 (1).jpegfemale sliding dovetail - 1 (3).jpeg

    And then pared the waste using a depth gauge. The madrone is fun to pare!

    female sliding dovetail - 1 (4).jpegfemale sliding dovetail - 1.jpeg

    And done, save final fitting.

    female sliding dovetail - 1 (1).jpeg

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    231

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    One corner joint 98% fitted and I'm pretty happy so far. It is slow going because trimming any one surface changes all the relationships with the other surfaces and going too fast or too far is a disaster. I still have shaping and cleanup to do on the aprons and legs but the miters have settled in nicely.

    Corner joint fitting - 2.jpegCorner joint fitting - 3.jpegCorner joint fitting - 5.jpegCorner joint fitting - 4.jpeg


    One thing that helps is that a couple of years back I made a copy of an 19th century French miter jack. It is fantastic for trimming miters on complex shapes where a shooting board doesn't work. I use it often. There are several designs but the one I used can be found by an internet search for La Forge Royale miter jack.

    miter jack - 1.jpeg

  11. #10
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    Nov 2020
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    Oregon, USA
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    The four corner joints are done except for final fitting and flushing the surfaces. The stretchers are next

    .Ming table four corners - 1.jpeg

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Melbourne
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    This is awesome! Thanks for sharing your process and progress (and for using mm )

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by LickinChips View Post
    This is awesome! Thanks for sharing your process and progress (and for using mm )
    Ha! I'm bi-metrical. I've used Imperial all my life for everyday stuff but used metric professionally as a scientist. For woodworking I started with Imperial tooling but have never been comfortable with using weird fractions needed for precise smaller measurements. For that I switched to decimal imperial. As i started acquiring more Japanese metric tooling it was a short step to going all metric. I don't miss using fractions.

    Here are some 9 x 18 x 30 mm mortices for the stretchers. There are four more not shown.

    mortices - 1.jpeg

  14. #13
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    Nov 2020
    Location
    Oregon, USA
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    Got the legs bandsawn roughly to shape. They taper about 8 mm on the inside surfaces. I was relieved to find that I actually got all four feet pointing in the proper direction! The empty mortices on the legs are for stretchers. Next up is shaping the aprons and their transitions to the legs.

    bandsawn legs - 1.jpeg

  15. #14
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    Nov 2020
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    Oregon, USA
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    Minor progress of rough shaping the lower edge of the aprons to meet the curves of the legs. Band saw and rasps and files to this point.
    bandsawn legs - 1 (1).jpeg

    Since not many people know the madrone wood I'm using I thought I'd show a few pictures of the tree as it grows in the hills near my house where I walk my dog. We are on the very eastern edge of its range. Go a couple of kilometers farther east and you are on the valley floor where it does not grow.

    Here is most of a sapling, perhaps 7 years old. Young bark is smooth and light tan to cinnamon brown. Leaves are strap shaped and evergreen.

    IMG_7324.jpg

    On poor and exposed sites they can become shrubby. This one is about 3 meters tall and wide.

    IMG_7327.jpg

    This one is taller with one main trunk maybe about 200 mm wide. I didn't measure it. In the wetter western side of the Oregon coast range 30-40 km west of here, they can grown taller, straighter, and wider.
    IMG_7329.jpg

    Madrone is in the Ericacae family, same as blueberries and heaths and heathers. They have tough, leathery, reddish berries like these. I think birds eat them. I have not been tempted.


    Madrone berries - 1.jpeg

    As the bark transitions from young to mature, it peels off in these lovely scales. I love this stage so much I looked into planting one in my yard. But it turns out that madrone is extremely difficult to grow from seed or to transplant. Not available in plant nurseries, even locally. The lore is that, "Only God can plant a madrone."

    Madrone bark - 1.jpeg

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
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    932

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    Been following this thread with interest GRadice, quite a display of craftsmanship and looking forward to the end result. The peeling bark on the madrone is otherworldly - thanks for sharing something not many of us are likely to see.

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