Thread: An occasional table (eventually!)

Real nice work there Ian.
Blackwood is a nice wood for the style as well. There have been originals like that in Aussie woods, red Cedar , from the very early days of Sydney that have shown up.
I like those tables and have made them myself . I like to mortise the legs in on those now but dovetailed them as well which is how the originals are done.
I can tell by the last pic the top isn't screwed on is it ?
Is that because your polishing it ?

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

....... Blackwood is a nice wood.....

'Tis a nice wood when it's 'nice', Rob. But I think we've discussed its idiosyncrasies before, have we not? It's so darned variable! You can have some that works like good Black Walnut, other stuff that is as hard as iron, with gnarly grain that chips out under the sharpest blades, or soft, furry stuff that won't finish worth a damn! But when you do have the really good stuff, I reckon it has few peers. Both the post and the top on this piece have that gorgeous deep, shimmery lustre that the Acacias seem to produce. Glad I saved it for this particular piece!

Originally Posted by auscab

...... I like to mortise the legs in on those now but dovetailed them as well which is how the originals are done.....

Do you have reasons for that? I'm thinking mortising may leave a bit more wood in the stem - the sliding D/T method does remove a lot of wood, and weakens it (as I've clearly demonstrated ). However, once the legs are glued in place, it ought to be as strong as solid wood again (theoretically). On this one, I did push the boundaries a bit, I should've made the D/Ts a bit narrower. So far, touch wood, none of my tables has busted in use, as far as I know..

Originally Posted by auscab

...... I can tell by the last pic the top isn't screwed on is it ?
Is that because your polishing it ?

It is screwed on, actually. There is a transition piece about 27mm thick that is mortised (& glued & wedged) onto the stem, which is aligned with the grain of the top & screwed to it. That's what you can see in the pic taken on the bench top - you don't see it when it's on the floor.

I considered polishing it, but in my experience, an oil & wax finish on BW can be every bit as nice as polish, and a lot easier! But it's even worse than shellac at handling liquid spills or condensation rings, and the younger generation aren't into fussing too much over their furniture, which is why I'll do the top with poly. I've had good success with it in the past, & ended up with a surface that's at least half as good as a good French polish job....
Cheers,

Blackwood , yeah I think we spoke about it at some stage. Well worth putting up with the difficult parts of finishing it by hand.

I Mortise just because I have an overhead routing type of machine to do the three flats, and the jig that is used to hold it also fits the chisel mortiser, so its a speed thing, but I also think its stronger once glued up . I like to fit a three way metal piece on some smaller tables but always on larger dinning size tripods which stops them splitting , The larger Antique ones split with time without one . you never see a metal braced one go . That takes more time to do though.

I saw the transition piece going same direction as the grain and thought you would have had it the other way so though it must be loose because you wouldn't do that , out smarted myself didn't I . lol .

I'm just being lazy and calling any clear finish polishing .
I use poly sanding sealer and then shellac on that,then wax. Shellac sticks if its the poly sanding sealer . But not to any other poly finish like satin or gloss stuff that Ive tried.

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

......I Mortise just because I have an overhead routing type of machine to do the three flats, and the jig that is used to hold it also fits the chisel mortiser, so its a speed thing, but I also think its stronger once glued up . I like to fit a three way metal piece on some smaller tables but always on larger dinning size tripods which stops them splitting , The larger Antique ones split with time without one . you never see a metal braced one go . That takes more time to do though.....

Yes, I can see that mortising could be a better engineering solution if the proportions are well-chosen - I think I've read an argument about it somewhere way back, probably in an old FWW mag.

I've also used 'spiders' on larger tripods, but only occasionally on these small tables. One reason I don't is that I like to fit a drop-finial to complete the appearance of the centre stem, and it is a bit less convenient to do with a metal plate covering things up. But it's not an insurmountable problem, by any means, & probably a sensible precaution, so I should make a regular habit of it.

Originally Posted by auscab

......I saw the transition piece going same direction as the grain and thought you would have had it the other way so though it must be loose because you wouldn't do that , out smarted myself didn't I . lol ....

Actually, full marks, Rob, both for observation & thinking about it! I usually do run the transition piece (or cleats on a tip/turn style top) across the grain, following the reasoning that the extra support for the joins in the top outweighs any cross-grain incompatibility, which I try to minimise by having loose holes for the screws. But this top has just two symmetrical pieces, with the join slap in the middle, and the transition piece is generously-sized, so I figured this way would still give the join some support, without any counter-grain issues. What do you think??

Cheers,

A Spider , thats a new one , never heard them called that . Ive never heard any name for them actually . Just a tri or Quad metal bracket I suppose.

Mortise may be less likely to split the column , But I think any one would prefer to see a hand made dovetailed traditional join in their table than a machine made one .
For the person / client who doesn't get into thinking to long about the different ways of putting woodwork together, doing it the traditional way is the best , if it takes longer then it must be better , is the thinking . Probably ?

I think by hand the dovetail is easier to do than mortise and tenon by hand as well. Its the machines that make the big difference to doing the mortise for me . The tenon I cut on tenoner still in a parallel board blank , then the template is held flush to the shoulder and the leg shape marked out off that for cutting on the band saw.

Yes that transition is generous in width . Its not so much the movement and the screws I think of . I always think of screws and their holes as having a lot more give , maybe 4 mm worth of shifting and compressing wood each side before a split would happen . A bit of elongation is a good idea , like you said.
Its the movement vertically like wings that I like to hold in place . I think put in a different environment , it may show up quickly . But your width is going to help with that . I don't go to far wider than the column with them usually, 5 or 10mm out either side .

Rob

Do you have a picture of the bracket or spider you are talking about? I'm always sucking up new info from this great forum.
Cheers, Peter

Here Peter. The one on the left is a little over the top with the amount of nails, you usually just see them screwed .
edit . Screwed is the later ones . probably more like the 19 century when screws were cheaper . These pics that I found on the net are mid to later 18th century ones.

Thanks for the pictures. Would it be normal to recess them slightly into the feet or just lay them on top?

Looks great, Ian.

That splitting on the spindle is the stuff of nightmares. I've cut that joinery four times, and twice I got some hairline cracks that didn't ruin the strength, but that's a world class blowout! And with all of that turned beadwork right there just to rub it in!

I like what you've done with the beading on the legs and edges. It complements the turning really well.

What's the top diameter of the table? Something around 16"?

Also, those spider pieces are available from Horton Brasses in the US. Pricey...

Table Spider | Spider Table Base | Horton Brasses

I haven't used one but I've considered doing it, especially for a large, chunky, dining table spindle or something.

Cheers,
Luke

Originally Posted by Lappa

.... Would it be normal to recess them slightly into the feet or just lay them on top?

Most of the oldies I've seen are just sitting on top of the wood. It's out of site and not seen unless you turn the table over, The metal is quite thin, which allows it to be moulded to the shape of the leg, as you see in Rob's pic.

It has often surprised me just how rough even quite 'high end' pieces can be in the places that don't show - I guess time was money, so you didn't waste it on parts that no-one but a repairer was ever likely to see...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

......That splitting on the spindle is the stuff of nightmares. I've cut that joinery four times, and twice I got some hairline cracks that didn't ruin the strength, but that's a world class blowout! And with all of that turned beadwork right there just to rub it in! ...

Yeah, I can't say I was overjoyed when it happened, Luke! Fortunately, what you see is as much cunning as elaborate turnery, so it doesn't take long to whip up a new post. But it is a waste of wood - no idea what I can salvage from the remainder, but I'll think of something, eventually..

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

.....What's the top diameter of the table? Something around 16"?

Little bit more, 500mm, so closer to 20"

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Also, those spider pieces are available from Horton Brasses in the US. Pricey...

Table Spider | Spider Table Base | Horton Brasses

I haven't used one but I've considered doing it, especially for a large, chunky, dining table spindle or something...

I couldn't see myself buying a ready-made one at those prices! I just bought some 18G plate to make the couple I've installed. Brass would probably be better for the very long haul, but those I've seen were iron, and had lasted 100yrs plus. If you wanted brass, I can't see any reason why you couldn't buy a bit of brass plate of an appropriate gauge and cut your own spider...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

I couldn't see myself buying a ready-made one at those prices! I just bought some 18G plate to make the couple I've installed. Brass would probably be better for the very long haul, but those I've seen were iron, and had lasted 100yrs plus. If you wanted brass, I can't see any reason why you couldn't buy a bit of brass plate of an appropriate gauge and cut your own spider...

Agreed. When the girlfriend and I first moved here we stayed with her aunt and uncle for free for over a month, so they're owed a piece of furniture. I have pretty much decided on something like this table, so maybe I'll give it a shot when I make it. If so, I'll post about it.

I had these laser cut for table bases . It was a fair while ago . I had about 30 made and they did from small tables up to large dining size . It was a mater of laying them out either for a 3 or 4 leg base on a life size drawn up template and cutting away the right amount of steel so 3 or sometimes 4 would sit right around the large hole then weld them together and grind flush . The large center hole was for a 16 mm ? I think ? rod to pass through . The larger tables had a X piece at the top of the column and the column had a 18 mm hole through the middle which a rod passed through which had a nut at the bottom that clamped the X and the column and the steel Tri bracket ( spider , USA ) together very tightly.
A picture under the table could be easier than that explanation !

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

..... I have pretty much decided on something like this table, so maybe I'll give it a shot when I make it. If so, I'll post about it.

Luke, a certain Shaker-inspired table in Crow's Ash has become indispensable in our house. It has mellowed to a very appealing honey colour, which has attracted a few compliments. And, I can usually find the (expletives deleted) TV remote, now!

Cheers,