Thread: Post & Beam Timber Frame Garage

Well I cut 4 of the summer beams, cut the matching shouldered dovetail housings in the tie beams and put a light coat of oil on the structure to hopefully slow the surface drying and checking. Fitted the summer beams and then started on my first king post.

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A few angles and tapered mortises on the king post and also measuring from a centreline as the post is thinner than I had drawn up in my plans so i had to rethink my layout and reference values etc. Hope it works out. I stupidly didn't buy a single extra meter of timber for this entire build so literally can't make a mistake on any pieces or it'll be weeks/months of setback.

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Started with the wedged dovetail tenon on the bottom of the king post first.

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Summer beams-

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Tomorrow I think I'll work on the other 4 summer beams and try finush this King Post. I need to decide how I'm going to attach the ridge beam to the king post - maybe a housed dovetail like the summer beams?

Cheers, Dom

Originally Posted by DomAU

I stupidly didn't buy a single extra meter of timber for this entire build

or, it's a hell of a gutsy move... lets wait and see shall we ?

Following with interest. There are some complex angles in those joints. Looking very good.

Cheers,

ajw

Thanks guys.

King post done this morning. Working on last four summer beams this afternoon.

Great day to be off work...working outside. .

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Don't mind the rough finish /cut on top - that will be tuned to suit the rafters once I know what thickness they are.

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This forum really loves to rotate squarr photos!

Cheers, Dom

curious if the neighbours have said anything.

I'll probably never make anything like this - but this thread is still nothing short of inspirational. Looks fantastic so far.

It's all coming together nicely. I love the look of those timbers.

I can't quite tell for sure but it looks like you cut the dovetails in the tie beams to receive the summer beams with the frame standing. That would have been fun.

Your wedged half dovetails connecting the tie beams to the posts look great. Those octagonal pegs are very effective. I am curious - it looks like the top face of the mortises are cut square to the face of the post and the bottom face is tapered, this being the half dovetail, as per Steve Chappell's description. Have you used a single wedge or gone for a pair of wedges (folded wedges) to fill the motrtise here?

Cheers, Chris

Originally Posted by ian

curious if the neighbours have said anything.

Nope. Not really. But one neighbour helped with the raising.

Also i have permits etc and spoke to neighbours beforehand if you are refering to any potential issues?

Cheers, Dom

Originally Posted by Alkahestic

I'll probably never make anything like this - but this thread is still nothing short of inspirational. Looks fantastic so far.

Wow, thanks mate!

Chris, thanks. Yeah, I thought about folded wedges but wanted to be able to access them in the future if required and I may clad over the sides of the posts, so I went with a single, shallow angled wedge. If it loosens up too much I'll extract and replace in future.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Chris

It's all coming together nicely. I love the look of those timbers.

I can't quite tell for sure but it looks like you cut the dovetails in the tie beams to receive the summer beams with the frame standing. That would have been fun.

Cheers, Chris

Haha, yes cut whilst standing. I've nearly fallen down so many times whilst climbing up and down a ladder balancing those summer beams in my arms to do test-fits/mark/measure lol - cutting the joinery was the least eventful part!

Cheers, Dom

Originally Posted by DomAU

Also i have permits etc and spoke to neighbours beforehand if you are refering to any potential issues?

I was more thinking that the construction is so out of character, compared to the neighbouring houses, that one or two may have made a comment or three.

Originally Posted by ian

I was more thinking that the construction is so out of character, compared to the neighbouring houses, that one or two may have made a comment or three.

No, strangely not a word. Once finished it will hopefully blend in ok with the surrounding houses (most importantly my own!). I have to decide on how I will clad the roof and walls etc. Only the front facing timber will be exposed.

Thinking possibly bitumen shingles for the roof or just colorbond and probably just colorbond for the external wall. The nice traditional timber-frame look will be for me inside.

Cheers, Dom

Hi Dom,

I'm sorry that I didn't get to see and read your posts sooner than this morning...???...I've been a member for sometime, but didn't get an update to your post till this morning...My own fault (I think.)

Originally Posted by DomAU

Just wondering if anyone on the forums has experience with traditional timber framing?

I am a Timberwright by profession (among other skill sets...LOL) so will go through your post thread for highlights and offer advise where you have asked for any...As a brief history, I've been timber framing on and off for over 40 years, and doing it full time since 2001. I'm Old Order Amish apprenticed from 13 til 23 years of age, and have been raised around a broad range of tradtional woodworking skills...

If I miss anything important to you, don't hesitate to ask. I am glad to help!

Originally Posted by DomAU

I'm worried if it takes me a while to do the joinery the green Cypress timber will twist / warp making assembly impossible. How long do you think I have between starting joinery until assembly to minimize this risk, and I'm assuming I should immediately coat the cut tenons and mortises etc with some sort of sealer? Any suggestions for available and suitable sealer?

This craft is acient and many modalities exist. For the most part working timber over time for any of the vernacular folk styles is not an issue. It isn't until you get into the larger or higher levels of the craft in Asia that "timing" of joint execution becomes an issue.

We sometimes will "seal" our joints with a blend of beeswax, tung oil, flax oil, pine rosin and citrus oil if we think there is going to be an issue with a given species and/or too much time passing between cutting the joints and raising...

Originally Posted by ian

years ago I went to a talk from a guy who built traditional timber frame buildings. Although the talk was predominately about the tools he used, what stood out was that the basic frame and joints was cut and test assembled off site -- in a large shed.

This advice isn't quite accurate...

Depending on the layout and joinery system used..."test assembly"...is not require at all. I have ever had to "test fit" a joint even when designing with live edge materials. Then again, I employ the more acient Asian "line rule" layout modalities, which tend to negate the need for such tests. Occasionally (or for pure fun and interest) we will draw a joint together to see what it looks like...

Originally Posted by DomAU

So just got the first delivery of Macrocarpa this afternoon. Things just got 2.5 cubic meters of real .

Timber looks ok but posts are not all very square - will need to actually apply some timber framing layout know-how that I don't yet know-how haha. Hopefully this doesn't end up as an epic fail!

I will presume this is either a plantation harvest or an invasive species to Australia and that the species is: Cypress macrocarpa?

If you employ "line rule" instead of the more contemporary (less than 300 years old for the most part) of "edge or mill rule" layout, the twist will have virtually zero effect on your joinery and/or general design goals. This is why you see round, tapered, live edge and other timber being used in Eastern European, Middle Eastern, and Asian timber frame and log architecture. "Scribe Rule" (perhaps the next oldest modality compared to "Line Rule") can also offers similar results, yet requires a tremendous amount of material handling and testing comparatively...Especially for a solo operator cutting a frame by themselves...

Originally Posted by ian

Dom, you need to remember that you are building a timber frame STRUCTURE not a piece of furniture.

What that means is that you do not need, nor can achieve furniture standard "flat" "straight" or "square" -- which doesn't matter because you are cutting joints to match what you have not dressing a stick to size and creating a joint for strength and appearance.
Secondly, unlike a piece of furniture in a timber frame a joint goes together once and stays together. Where required it is held together with a peg or two, not glue and clamps. (Yeah I know that you will probably do most of your joint cutting in your garage, but see the next point.)
Lastly, framing sticks are too heavy / too long to easily pick up and show to the mating piece -- so you really want to minimise the number of times each stick is picked up and manipulated.

On that advise Dom (sorry Ian...) here is some feedback I can share from 40 years of doing this...

To Ian' first observation ... I would suggest not layout our to any less tolerance that 0.5 mm. Even though I am in the United States, I have used metric my entire career...Most of my tools are traditional Japanese, or German Mafell/Festool so metric is the standard. Plus it's just bloody logical to use...LOL. As such our tolerance of 0.5mm whether its a Harvest Table, Cabinet or a timber frame 45 meters long keeps thing accurate. Does it matter? In my experience with the craft from a global perspective in both restoration and new work...yes...very much. It follows the old adage of being a Marine Sniper:

"Aim small...miss small."

In other words, "slop" in joinery tends to not happen. The joinery is not tight nor lose...the line is left on both sides of an execution (aka mortise-tenon) and the layout compensates for the width of the line (usually 0.7mm wide.) Some joints are indeed intentionally "looser" than others but that is by design not laziness...

"Flat and square"...has no bearing on most traditional woodworking projects very often, especially in the larger elements like timber frames, boat building, large furniture, etc. Sometimes it may be necessary, yet that is the exception, not the rule. Joints are again, laid out to the "line" within the timber or plank, and that line (sometimes translated "soul line") is imaginary within the timber and only graphically represented on the surface as a guide...

In Ian's second observation, I would have to share that...no..."unlike a piece of furniture in a timber frame a joint goes together once and stays together..." That is not always true at all. I have restored and moved countless traditional old house, barn and boat frames over the years. Japanese frames are often repurpose and taken apart to be used elsewhere and/or worked on over the centuries and in some cases millenia. So we think not only of our own work, but the many others that will come after ust that may need to work on a frame. I have even had to move my own and/or colleague frames so making joints "work well" new or old is very much a wise plan to have...This is even true if "draw born," together with trunnel (aka peg) though most of our joinery is gravity and/or wedge as we tend not to use pegs hardly at all...

As to the last point...we don't move our timber unless we need to...and there are seldom more than just me and one other person on most projects...even big ones...

Apologies again for missing so much of this post thread. It looks like you well into it and doing great!!! Let me know if I can be of any help further or on another project...

Warm Regards,

j

Originally Posted by White Cloud

Hi Dom,

I'm sorry that I didn't get to see and read your posts sooner than this morning...???...I've been a member for sometime, but didn't get an update to your post till this morning...My own fault (I think.)



I am a Timberwright by profession (among other skill sets...LOL) so will go through your post thread for highlights and offer advise where you have asked for any...As a brief history, I've been timber framing on and off for over 40 years, and doing it full time since 2001. I'm Old Order Amish apprenticed from 13 til 23 years of age, and have been raised around a broad range of tradtional woodworking skills...

If I miss anything important to you, don't hesitate to ask. I am glad to help!



This craft is acient and many modalities exist. For the most part working timber over time for any of the vernacular folk styles is not an issue. It isn't until you get into the larger or higher levels of the craft in Asia that "timing" of joint execution becomes an issue.

We sometimes will "seal" our joints with a blend of beeswax, tung oil, flax oil, pine rosin and citrus oil if we think there is going to be an issue with a given species and/or too much time passing between cutting the joints and raising...




This advice isn't quite accurate...

Depending on the layout and joinery system used..."test assembly"...is not require at all. I have ever had to "test fit" a joint even when designing with live edge materials. Then again, I employ the more acient Asian "line rule" layout modalities, which tend to negate the need for such tests. Occasionally (or for pure fun and interest) we will draw a joint together to see what it looks like...



I will presume this is either a plantation harvest or an invasive species to Australia and that the species is: Cypress macrocarpa?

If you employ "line rule" instead of the more contemporary (less than 300 years old for the most part) of "edge or mill rule" layout, the twist will have virtually zero effect on your joinery and/or general design goals. This is why you see round, tapered, live edge and other timber being used in Eastern European, Middle Eastern, and Asian timber frame and log architecture. "Scribe Rule" (perhaps the next oldest modality compared to "Line Rule") can also offers similar results, yet requires a tremendous amount of material handling and testing comparatively...Especially for a solo operator cutting a frame by themselves...




On that advise Dom (sorry Ian...) here is some feedback I can share from 40 years of doing this...

To Ian' first observation ... I would suggest not layout our to any less tolerance that 0.5 mm. Even though I am in the United States, I have used metric my entire career...Most of my tools are traditional Japanese, or German Mafell/Festool so metric is the standard. Plus it's just bloody logical to use...LOL. As such our tolerance of 0.5mm whether its a Harvest Table, Cabinet or a timber frame 45 meters long keeps thing accurate. Does it matter? In my experience with the craft from a global perspective in both restoration and new work...yes...very much. It follows the old adage of being a Marine Sniper:

"Aim small...miss small."

In other words, "slop" in joinery tends to not happen. The joinery is not tight nor lose...the line is left on both sides of an execution (aka mortise-tenon) and the layout compensates for the width of the line (usually 0.7mm wide.) Some joints are indeed intentionally "looser" than others but that is by design not laziness...

"Flat and square"...has no bearing on most traditional woodworking projects very often, especially in the larger elements like timber frames, boat building, large furniture, etc. Sometimes it may be necessary, yet that is the exception, not the rule. Joints are again, laid out to the "line" within the timber or plank, and that line (sometimes translated "soul line") is imaginary within the timber and only graphically represented on the surface as a guide...

In Ian's second observation, I would have to share that...no..."unlike a piece of furniture in a timber frame a joint goes together once and stays together..." That is not always true at all. I have restored and moved countless traditional old house, barn and boat frames over the years. Japanese frames are often repurpose and taken apart to be used elsewhere and/or worked on over the centuries and in some cases millenia. So we think not only of our own work, but the many others that will come after ust that may need to work on a frame. I have even had to move my own and/or colleague frames so making joints "work well" new or old is very much a wise plan to have...This is even true if "draw born," together with trunnel (aka peg) though most of our joinery is gravity and/or wedge as we tend not to use pegs hardly at all...

As to the last point...we don't move our timber unless we need to...and there are seldom more than just me and one other person on most projects...even big ones...

Apologies again for missing so much of this post thread. It looks like you well into it and doing great!!! Let me know if I can be of any help further or on another project...

Warm Regards,

j

Wow. Now it's my turn to appologise, I missed your amazing reply until just now! Thanks so much for your first-hand knowledge, comment and advice. Very much appreciated. Thank you.

I had to take a little break away from it for a while but started working again a little this weekend.

Cut the other two King Posts and started prepping timber for the first rafters-

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Cheers, Dom