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  1. #91
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    Let's try with correct photo rotation -

    20181030_070616.jpg

    20181030_070549.jpg

    Cheers, Dom

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    Wow. Now it's my turn to appologise, I missed your amazing reply until just now! Thanks so much for your first-hand knowledge, comment and advice. Very much appreciated. Thank you.

    I had to take a little break away from it for a while but started working again a little this weekend.

    Cut the other two King Posts and started prepping timber for the first rafters-

    Attachment 445003

    Attachment 445004

    Attachment 445005

    Cheers, Dom
    Hey Dom,

    If you get this in time to be of help...Great!!!

    I had a few questions...

    Did you do this in Sketchup or draft a plan and beam map by hand?

    On the King Posts, how long are the Tenons on the Principle Rafters?

    How large are the Principle Rafters?

    What configuration have you chosen for the Purlin system?

    Does the King Post Truss Tie Beam rest upon the Rafter Plate or does it terminate into the Wall Post under the Rafter Plate?

    Observation:

    It looks like (??) you have a Ridge Beam/Purlin designed into this frame from what I can glean from the King Post joinery excutions at the top of the post. If so, I would strongly recommend that this be housed and that the tenon system you have planned be turned into a Wedged Spline. This adds a huge level of streght of the the life of the frame (centuries to millenia...believe it or not) and make assembly much, MUCH!!! easier for you...

    For that matter any joint that can rely on a spline and/or gravity for security is a good plan to follow. As is, houseing joints whenever possible...

    Any way...Great to connect. Looks fantastic, and I hope your having a blast cutting the frame!!!

    Blessings,

  4. #93
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    Dom, I recall a user here who did a similar project some years ago, the reason it sticks in my mind is he imported a Mafelle saw or it may have been a Mortiser to do the framing. Someone reading this may recall the thread as well and know how to find it.
    CHRIS

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Cloud View Post
    Hey Dom,

    If you get this in time to be of help...Great!!!

    I had a few questions...

    Did you do this in Sketchup or draft a plan and beam map by hand?

    On the King Posts, how long are the Tenons on the Principle Rafters?

    How large are the Principle Rafters?

    What configuration have you chosen for the Purlin system?

    Does the King Post Truss Tie Beam rest upon the Rafter Plate or does it terminate into the Wall Post under the Rafter Plate?

    Observation:

    It looks like (??) you have a Ridge Beam/Purlin designed into this frame from what I can glean from the King Post joinery excutions at the top of the post. If so, I would strongly recommend that this be housed and that the tenon system you have planned be turned into a Wedged Spline. This adds a huge level of streght of the the life of the frame (centuries to millenia...believe it or not) and make assembly much, MUCH!!! easier for you...

    For that matter any joint that can rely on a spline and/or gravity for security is a good plan to follow. As is, houseing joints whenever possible...

    Any way...Great to connect. Looks fantastic, and I hope your having a blast cutting the frame!!!

    Blessings,
    Hi J,

    Unfortunately I don't have a singular plan for this - it's a combination of hand sketches, some computer sketches (no joinery detail and not all members) and the rest as I go and in my head. Not ideal but that's the reality!

    Due to my complete ignorance, inexperience and several design constraints my design has;

    - King Posts into Tie Beams using a wedged half-dovetail tenon.
    IMG_20181011_210015_369.jpg

    - Tie Beams likewise are a wedged half dovetail into the posts (and draw bore pegged as well)

    IMG_20180812_165750_246.jpg

    IMG_20181006_222124_034.jpg

    The Rafters will be shouldered tenon/birdsmouth? Onto the posts and pegged (peg doesn't do much here just locates and for uplift).

    Mating post joinery -

    IMG_20180723_200357_215.jpg

    Purlins and ridge purlin will be shouldered and housed, with a wedged dovetail like the summer beams shown here-
    IMG_20181010_213711_422.jpg

    IMG_20181011_102741_714.jpg

    The purlins will run along the length parallel to the ridge beam/purlin between the rafters (which are 160x160mm). There will be wall girts but they won't support purlins or rafters.

    I assume what you call splines I call dovetails?

    Thanks for the help!

    Cheers, Dom

  6. #95
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    Dom, these joints are a work of art. I'm enjoying watching this come together. Thanks for the excellent photos.

    cheers,

    ajw

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...Unfortunately I don't have a singular plan for this - it's a combination of hand sketches, some computer sketches (no joinery detail and not all members) and the rest as I go and in my head. Not ideal but that's the reality!
    Hi Dom,

    More currious than anything about your design approach logistically...If it is working for you...that is all that really needs to be "ideal."

    Often I tell students that are DIYing something just for themselves that making a system work "for them" is not the same as a professional approach to the logistical aspects of planning out a project. They don't have to make a living from it, all they have to do is have fun and make sure they understand what is happening during each step...You seem to have done that extremely well!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    - King Posts into Tie Beams using a wedged half-dovetail tenon.
    IMG_20181011_210015_369.jpg
    This is not the most secure joint for a King Post Truss, but it will work for sure...

    If you would like an alternative to this (not necessary for such a small frame without critical loads...aka earthquakes, high wind events, snow loads, etc.) I can make some recommendations if interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    - Tie Beams likewise are a wedged half dovetail into the posts (and draw bore pegged as well)

    IMG_20180812_165750_246.jpg
    IMG_20181006_222124_034.jpg
    Well...LOL...that should be more than secure for you size frame...The joint looks like it came out really tight and snug for you...!!!!...excellent.

    It looks like the trunnel/peg holes are about 50mm (more?) from the diminished haunch housing. This seems to leave only about maybe 100 mills (less?) before the end of the tenon.

    Draw boring exerts a great deal of pressure on tenon "relish," and when a joint is subject to time (aka aging) this is where the joint often fails is with the relish.

    There is relatively easy and proven way to greatly strengthen relish in tenons in such situation, should you ever have to choose sucha joint again. It seems you have assemble these already, so no need to go into it, unless you are currious about the method...


    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    The Rafters will be shouldered tenon/birdsmouth? Onto the posts and pegged (peg doesn't do much here just locates and for uplift).

    Mating post joinery -

    IMG_20180723_200357_215.jpg
    For your frame's load paths and frame size/location, that should be fine...


    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    Purlins and ridge purlin will be shouldered and housed, with a wedged dovetail like the summer beams shown here-
    IMG_20181010_213711_422.jpg

    IMG_20181011_102741_714.jpg

    The purlins will run along the length parallel to the ridge beam/purlin between the rafters (which are 160x160mm). There will be wall girts but they won't support purlins or rafters.
    Again, that should be fine...

    For the future (should you cut another frame) the old Timberwright adage (there are quite few of them...LOL)...the "Rules of 3s and 4s...2s and 3s" comes into play...Translated into metric that means that below the prulin housing, there should be 75mm of wood before the bottom of the Principal Rafter and 100 mm is better...And...on top of the Principal Rafter the "relish" between the dovetail housings should be 50mm minimum and 75mm being better especially in a softwood...

    I would also recommend (if your open to it) that you "smash wedge" shims along the edges of the dovetail and/or use a Timberlock metal fastener into these dovetail tenons...They do not suffer well the passing of time, but this will also depend on the roof deck system you have selected too...

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...I assume what you call splines I call dovetails?
    No Sir...

    A dovetail is a type of "drop in" tenon...Where a spline is a "free tenon" system. Very acient and from a huge family of joints...

    You have most of your frame cut, so most of this is academic. Should you ever choose to cut another frame (or your just interested) we can get into those kinds of details...

    Thanks again, so much, for sharing your project with everyone! I'm glad to be following along. Let me know if I can help or explain anything better...

    Regards,

    j

  8. #97
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    Hi Dom (and J),

    I wondered if you might have been up at the Grampians for Steve Chappell's Fox Maple worshop this week...

    It would be interesting to hear J's recommendations and advice for the king post to tie beam joint, and for strengthening the relish for draw-bored tennons. It would be good to draw on his experience.

    Cheers,
    Chris

  9. #98
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    Thanks J,

    Wish I had have had your advice sooner. Like Chris I definitely would be interested in your recommendations for a king post joint and strengthening relish in tenons.

    I'm also very curious about the loose tenon / spline system and will look into it in any case.

    Hi Chris, no unfortunately I wasn't aware of the workshop! Man that sucks - although i would have learned all the things I could / should have done better lol.

    Cheers, Dom

  10. #99
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    Yeah ok, wow. Just looked up spline joints. You definitely get a lot more "relish" and overall size / strength that way. I'll definitely keep that in mind for any possible future projects. Thanks!

  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    Yeah ok, wow. Just looked up spline joints. You definitely get a lot more "relish" and overall size / strength that way. I'll definitely keep that in mind for any possible future projects. Thanks!
    Hi Dom and Chris,

    I thought you would like those and you are most welcome. My professional email is easy to find and should you ever wish, feel free to send me an email. I do a lot of "pro bono" work for new students and those DIYers not working professional in the craft. I'm kind of the mindset of "paying it forward" like it was done for me by the Old Order Amish that got this ball rolling for me and all the rest ever since...

    I'm only guessing, mind you, because I don't have your drawings in front of me, but I imagine that free splines would work very well in many of the frames joinery locations, not only facilitating a easier assembly, but also make for a much stronger frame since most free tenons are in some species of hardwood...

    Matter of fact, as I have stated, I work almost exclusively (and traditionally) in green lumber (aka "wet wood"...LOL) but when designing new modern frames (and really pushing the envelope load wise on some of them) you can get away with some pretty extreme loads just by adding dried (or oversized) hardwood "free splines" to softwood primary timbers. With this approach modality you get the best of both worlds...the lightness of softwoods and the massive strength of hardwoods!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ike Chris I definitely would be interested in your recommendations for a king post joint and strengthening relish in tenons.
    It is probably too late, and/or too much work, but you could replace many of your joints with Free Tenon.

    The types, styles and numbers of kind of them could (and have) filled books. I do better when I have a full set of prints in front of me, and (of course...LOL) before a project starts...

    But Hay!!!!...there is always the future and the fun of looking forward to your next frame!!!

    The one joint I would probably recommend perhaps changing (or maybe not...???...it's hard to really say without being there or seeing prints) is the tenon on the bottom of the King post. This could be a hardwood free spline (aka free tenon) with Through Tenon configuration with wedge (all in hardwood of course) that replace the current configuration, as just one example...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Chris View Post
    ...I wondered if you might have been up at the Grampians for Steve Chappell's Fox Maple worshop this week...It would be interesting to hear J's recommendations and advice for the king post to tie beam joint, and for strengthening the relish for draw-bored tennons. It would be good to draw on his experience...
    Funny how small the "timber framing world" really is...even globally. I have friend and collegues from Japan to the U.K. and almost all of us here in the North America that have been doing it professionally and teaching know each other by the first name...LOL.

    I actually have an order pending from Steve right now, and he is a great source of knowledge for sure if you do ever get to take a class or workshop from him. Do say hello from me...He will get a chuckle out of that...

    On strengthening a tenon for draw bore, be that a timber frame or in furniture...it works excellent in both!!! It was a well guarded (or was...LOL) secret in the past among Master Woodwrights...but is a very simple solution that once leaned is kind of one of those:

    "Dah..!!!???...Why didn't I think of that,"...moments.

    This little trick is simply to bore a hole all the way through the depth of the tenon about 50mm from the peg/trunnel and maybe also about 50 mm from the end of the tenon also (if a heavily loaded joint) and placing either a hardwood dowel or one of bronze (very acient method seen in China.) I recommend gluing them into place, and in a quick pinch a "timber lock" screw (or related) can replace the dowl for emergency fixes and such.

    This "strengthening" also arrests the issue of the tenon checking and splitting also, which often happens to many large tenon over time especially in "heart center" timbers. This is another reason I like "free tenon" and will apply this method to them as well...for timber frames or furniture if the need arises or is applicable to the load...(aka Harvest Tables, large Chairs, etc.)

    This might also be a point to bring up an acient method we often use called:

    背割り (Sewari) (link attached)

    This roughly translates into "spine divide" or "back/belly split" and is used to mitigate or completely arrest checking of any kind in green wood timbers by relieving interstitial stresses within the wood. It is done by kerfing from the top/bottom (aka spine/belly) of the timber down to the center of the member...

    Cheers to you both...I'm pleased to meet you both and be of help!

    j

    P.S.

    You may enjoy this Youtube channel...He is a dear friend of mine:

    "Mr. Chickadee"
    Last edited by White Cloud; 1st Nov 2018 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Typo...

  12. #101
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    Thanks again J,

    Strengthening the tenon with a hardwood dowel is a great idea / technique - and one that I will gladly adopt! Thank you!

    The only difficulty with splines for me would have been on one side of the garage that is tapered. I would have had to mortise the posts at 4 degrees and I think cutting angled tenons was easier than cutting accurate angled mortises. It does seem like a great technique though and using dry hardwood for the splines clearly has many benefits. Thanks again for pointing this out.

    With the King Post tenon it's going to be difficult for me to modify the mortise in the tie-beam to go right through (they are 140mm deep at the moment - I don't have any 240mm+ long augers) and from my calcs I don't think there should be a lot of tension on that joint as the Tie beams are 240mm deep and only span 2400- 2900mm and 1000mm less than that if you count the knee braces. I don't think they will want to sag much. I could be completely wrong though. Maybe if I use your relish strengthening technique on the tenons...?

    Cheers, Dom

  13. #102
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    Thanks again J,

    Strengthening the tenon with a hardwood dowel is a great idea / technique - and one that I will gladly adopt! Thank you!

    The only difficulty with splines for me would have been on one side of the garage that is tapered. I would have had to mortise the posts at 4 degrees and I think cutting angled tenons was easier than cutting accurate angled mortises. It does seem like a great technique though and using dry hardwood for the splines clearly has many benefits. Thanks again for pointing this out.

    With the King Post tenon it's going to be difficult for me to modify the mortise in the tie-beam to go right through (they are 140mm deep at the moment - I don't have any 240mm+ long augers) and from my calcs I don't think there should be a lot of tension on that joint as the Tie beams are 240mm deep and only span 2400- 2900mm and 1000mm less than that if you count the knee braces. I don't think they will want to sag much. I could be completely wrong though. Maybe if I use your relish strengthening technique on the tenons...?

    Cheers, Dom

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...Strengthening the tenon with a hardwood dowel is a great idea / technique - and one that I will gladly adopt! Thank you! ...
    Hi Dom,

    You are welcome and I hope this method is of good service to you in the future...


    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...The only difficulty with splines for me would have been on one side of the garage that is tapered. I would have had to mortise the posts at 4 degrees and I think cutting angled tenons was easier than cutting accurate angled mortises. It does seem like a great technique though and using dry hardwood for the splines clearly has many benefits. Thanks again for pointing this out...
    I must admit...you lost me on this one?

    The splines for location that are blocked from exterior frame access, which is more common than not, is just overcome by a sliding free tenon of one form or another that is fitted from inside the frame. Often this is done from the top (spine or back) of the timber not the bottom (belly.)

    Did I miss something? Dovetailed tenon are always fitted into angled mortise, and the angle on these is usually 6 to 8 typically, sometimes a wee bit greater. I don't get the 4 mortise approach being an issue, could you explain your thinking about that in more detail?

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...With the King Post tenon it's going to be difficult for me to modify the mortise in the tie-beam to go right through (they are 140mm deep at the moment - I don't have any 240mm+ long augers)
    For DIY and student cut frames (and limited tools) I usually recommend cutting the mortises traditionally anyway...

    That means no "auger" at all. It can be done effectively (and faster than you think) all by chisel. If ever interested or needing deeper mortise (i.e blind/pocket or through) and not having the proper length auger, chain or chisel mortiser...a chisel will do a fine job and a tradtional one as well...

    Note...Most oblique braces do not decrease structurally the span distance at all. In many examples (aka braces under 1000mm long) the braces actually add strain to the adjacent joinery as they only act in compression (not tension at all) and work the joinery lose over time because a short oblique brace is more like a "fulcrum" than a strengthening member within a frame...This is why many (all in some regions) oblique braces are never pegged at all...For an oblique brace to do the proper work it must generate from much lower on the post, even coming up from the very bottom of a post there by acting like a true "wind brace." Depending on the joinery of these they can even act as a Tension Strut and not just a compression brace...This topic then moves into the realm of actual "braced frames" which most example in the contemporary are not that at all because of the absence of Knee Bracing working with the Elbow brace above it...Many oblique braces employed today are more for "show" than actually functioning in complete concert structurally within the timber frames they find themselves in...

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...from my calcs I don't think there should be a lot of tension on that joint as the Tie beams are 240mm deep and only span 2400- 2900mm and 1000mm less than that if you count the knee braces. I don't think they will want to sag much. I could be completely wrong though. Maybe if I use your relish strengthening technique on the tenons...?
    That is a very large Tie Beam for such a small span...so I agree that there shouldn't be any sag at all...

    In a King Post Truss that beam and the King post are in tension, as you probably have learned in the process of cutting this frame. On that note, I do have some reservation about having only 140mm tenon on that King Post. It most likely is fine, but I am sure most PE would want a through tenon in the configuration as you have the frame now...

    Below are just a few good examples of "top wedged" King Post...If I am following you correctly, yours is in a version of these?






    This is just one example of a splined version...


    Regards,

    j
    Last edited by White Cloud; 4th Nov 2018 at 07:42 PM. Reason: typo...

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Cloud View Post
    Hi Dom,


    I must admit...you lost me on this one?

    The splines for location that are blocked from exterior frame access, which is more common than not, is just overcome by a sliding free tenon of one form or another that is fitted from inside the frame. Often this is done from the top (spine or back) of the timber not the bottom (belly.)

    Did I miss something? Dovetailed tenon are always fitted into angled mortise, and the angle on these is usually 6 to 8 typically, sometimes a wee bit greater. I don't get the 4 mortise approach being an issue, could you explain your thinking about that in more detail?

    Hi j,

    My frame tapers from 3.3m wide at the front to 2.75m wide at the rear, with side perpendicular to the front and one side tapered at about 4.2 degrees. So all of the wall plates on that side are angled to the posts at 4.2 degrees as the posts remain parallel/perpendicular to the front. I imagine it would have been more difficult for me to cut the through-mortises accurately at an angle through the posts vs cutting angled tenons on the wall plates to fit into normal mortises in the posts. You can see the taper in the photo below. The summer beams are perpendicular to the tie-beams. Not sure if that explains what I meant?

    20181014_1121450.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by White Cloud View Post
    For DIY and student cut frames (and limited tools) I usually recommend cutting the mortises traditionally anyway...

    That means no "auger" at all. It can be done effectively (and faster than you think) all by chisel. If ever interested or needing deeper mortise (i.e blind/pocket or through) and not having the proper length auger, chain or chisel mortiser...a chisel will do a fine job and a tradtional one as well...

    That is a very large Tie Beam for such a small span...so I agree that there shouldn't be any sag at all...

    In a King Post Truss that beam and the King post are in tension, as you probably have learned in the process of cutting this frame. On that note, I do have some reservation about having only 140mm tenon on that King Post. It most likely is fine, but I am sure most PE would want a through tenon in the configuration as you have the frame now...

    Below are just a few good examples of "top wedged" King Post...If I am following you correctly, yours is in a version of these?






    j

    Yes, my configuration was to be as per the picture above; except for the tenon not going right through. I initially had planned to have a through tenon, but changed my mind when I switched to a 240mm tie-beam and thought that maybe it was over-kill haha - lesson learnt.

    I will strongly consider re-cutting my King posts and tie-beams to accept loose tenons / splines all the way through. How far up the king post would you suggest I have the spline going? Also, would you cut the slot in the king-post right through both sides, or leave 20mm along one edge with only one side "open"? If completely open, I assume the timber is more susceptible to cup/warp? Presumably I would still need to continue the half-dovetail in the mortise and then cut a dovetailed spline that would change to straight when it enters the King-post? I would then still wedge and peg the spline/loose-tenon into the tie-beam?

    Thanks again!

    Dom
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #105
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    Dom, you need one of these

    CHRIS

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