Thread: New stair build - advice needed!

For eons 19mm hardwood has been used across floor joists at 450mm centres... is there a particular standard thickness for stairs of varying widths? I suspect it may be heavier than 19mm - but may well be incorrect.

Looks good though.

Originally Posted by Zampano

2. One of the stringers is almost flawless, although the other has a number of small cracks that do not penetrate the entire width of the stringer, but still make me slightly nervous. Most of these are near the top. From my web research, it seems these are known as 'checks'. Should I be worried about these? If I should be worried, is there anything I can do?

not sure if you should be worried, but to settle your mind you could use butterfly keys to hold the checks together

3. I would like to had a steel handrail that is fairly basic. Can anyone recommend a somewhere in Melbourne I can source this or have one made?

having one made might be a problem
there's a number of building rules for hand rails and ballestrades (related to being the correct size so a hand can grab a firm hold and posts spaced close enough so a small child can't get a head through the gaps, etc) and the handrail fabricator might not like being seen to take responsibility for your non-conforming stairs


out of interest what happens when you go to sell the place or rent it out?
where I live, the local council could force you to remove the stairs and reinstate the attic

Originally Posted by Astrodog

For eons 19mm hardwood has been used across floor joists at 450mm centres... is there a particular standard thickness for stairs of varying widths? I suspect it may be heavier than 19mm - but may well be incorrect.

Looks good though.

Thanks Astro.

I was unable in my brief web research to find a standard, although others may know? I reckon for these centres (approx 390mm), it should be good enough. My interest in using thinner boards was to keep it looking as light and airy as possible, given the small space. It's a matter of taste in one way, but do you think it may look better with thicker treads?

Originally Posted by ian

not sure if you should be worried, but to settle your mind you could use butterfly keys to hold the checks together
having one made might be a problem
there's a number of building rules for hand rails and ballestrades (related to being the correct size so a hand can grab a firm hold and posts spaced close enough so a small child can't get a head through the gaps, etc) and the handrail fabricator might not like being seen to take responsibility for your non-conforming stairs


out of interest what happens when you go to sell the place or rent it out?
where I live, the local council could force you to remove the stairs and reinstate the attic

Hmmm ... the butterfly keys seem like a good, and attractive option. In the spirit of avoiding any unnecessary work that I would be a newbie at do you reckon that it would be safe without? i.e. is it common for checks to widen further in such circumstances, and in such material?

I take your point on the balustrade - I'm really after something fairly low profile against the stair. As an aside, the attic ladder that was there would - i'd imagine - be no-where near conforming as a stair case, yet these are sold and installed everywhere. Do you reckon they may have a different standard applied.

Yikes - that sounds like a hardcore council you got there! I'm pretty unlikely to rent it, but should I sell at some point I don't think it will be an issue. I've seen some pretty nutty stuff when I was looking for a house.

I'll whack on a couple of pics of the attic itself in the next 24, just for curiosity value.

Originally Posted by Zampano

Hmmm ... the butterfly keys seem like a good, and attractive option. In the spirit of avoiding any unnecessary work that I would be a newbie at do you reckon that it would be safe without? i.e. is it common for checks to widen further in such circumstances, and in such material?

to be honest, I don't know
they're usually associated with drying stresses and can lead to material's stress grade being down graded -- not a problem for you if the wood was down graded to F17 because of the checks
I think I'd keep an eye on them and listen for crack growth.

I take your point on the balustrade - I'm really after something fairly low profile against the stair.

hand rail profile should be readily available
the required height is probably documented in your local council's building regs

As an aside, the attic ladder that was there would - i'd imagine - be no-where near conforming as a stair case, yet these are sold and installed everywhere. Do you reckon they may have a different standard applied.

there's a difference
fold down attic ladders are "approved" for temporary access to attic storage
if the attic is converted to a room, especially a bed room, then the access is supposed to be permanent -- which you have provided -- but designed so that in the event that the room needs to be evacuated, people don't trip and fall down the stairs

old houses -- like my mine -- are allowed to keep 1890 standard stairways. But if you strip and rebuild the interior, you have to install current standard stairways.

Originally Posted by Zampano

Thanks Astro.

I was unable in my brief web research to find a standard, although others may know? I reckon for these centres (approx 390mm), it should be good enough. My interest in using thinner boards was to keep it looking as light and airy as possible, given the small space. It's a matter of taste in one way, but do you think it may look better with thicker treads?

There's a little bit of difference with the comparison astro made regards flooring and 450 centers in that a floor board is (usually) supported over more than two points of support (joists) and is considered to be continuous, your stair step tread is supported at two points only and as such would be in general be thicker (for the same center distance) but with your centers being 390 this would improve the possibility of 19mm thick being considered ok, but the acid test is how much deflection you get and what it feels like to walk on? If when you walk on it and it doesn't bend and it feels solid it'll probably be ok

Pete

Originally Posted by pjt

There's a little bit of difference with the comparison astro made regards flooring and 450 centers in that a floor board is (usually) supported over more than two points of support (joists) and is considered to be continuous, your stair step tread is supported at two points only and as such would be in general be thicker (for the same center distance) but with your centers being 390 this would improve the possibility of 19mm thick being considered ok, but the acid test is how much deflection you get and what it feels like to walk on? If when you walk on it and it doesn't bend and it feels solid it'll probably be ok

Pete

Thanks Pete. The steps certainly feel very solid - there is defitinetly no flex or give. I was partly wondering as well if a thicker tread would contribute to overall rigidity and structural strength - any thoughts?

Originally Posted by ian

to be honest, I don't know
they're usually associated with drying stresses and can lead to material's stress grade being down graded -- not a problem for you if the wood was down graded to F17 because of the checks
I think I'd keep an eye on them and listen for crack growth.

good advice - thanks!

hand rail profile should be readily available
the required height is probably documented in your local council's building regs
there's a difference
fold down attic ladders are "approved" for temporary access to attic storage
if the attic is converted to a room, especially a bed room, then the access is supposed to be permanent -- which you have provided -- but designed so that in the event that the room needs to be evacuated, people don't trip and fall down the stairs

I'll just make sure I don't start any fires in that case

old houses -- like my mine -- are allowed to keep 1890 standard stairways. But if you strip and rebuild the interior, you have to install current standard stairways.

Good advice also. It was really a question of not over-capitalising and having a pretty large and imposing stairway that would have looked odd in the space. My house is a semi-detached workers cottage (late 1800s/early 1900s), so everything has to be done in a relatively small envelope. It's like renovating a house to scale really everything is slightly smaller and narrower than usual.

I wont get into building specs as that has all been said and you are aware of the responsability. I would however add risers to beef things up. This will transfer some load to the next step down and where the checking is present will be of some help. The checks could be filled with epoxy then sanded flush. If you want belt and braces too then behind the checked section glue and screw wood or ply stiffeners at right angles to the cracks.
Regards.
John

Originally Posted by orraloon

I wont get into building specs as that has all been said and you are aware of the responsability. I would however add risers to beef things up. This will transfer some load to the next step down and where the checking is present will be of some help. The checks could be filled with epoxy then sanded flush. If you want belt and braces too then behind the checked section glue and screw wood or ply stiffeners at right angles to the cracks.
Regards.
John

thanks John - good tips. I'm going to leave it without the risers, just to keep that sense of space.
I like your idea of the epoxy ... is there any particular product you would recommend?

In terms of the belt and braces option, the checked section of the stringer is right at the top of the stairs, which is fixed with screws to the structural ply ledger. Is this sufficient, or do you mean that the ply section should be fixed on the 'inside' side of the stringer?

fyi - here are some pics of the attic conversion at the top of the stairs that I completed about 12 months ago. Has made a great bedroom - nice and airy ... and great storage behind the knee walls also. The doors to the storage area are recycled shed door I picked up from ebay, similarly the hardwood timber for the floors was an ebay surplus from a construction job. I didn't do the plastering or skylight install ... left that to the experts. Took me around 6 months to complete all up.

Looks nice
If the bedroom is not in daily use I think I would have gone for a set of stairs like these Bessler Folding Attic Stairs Model 100

Originally Posted by Zampano

Thanks Pete. The steps certainly feel very solid - there is defitinetly no flex or give. I was partly wondering as well if a thicker tread would contribute to overall rigidity and structural strength - any thoughts?

Probably only marginal and very dependant on how well you fix the thicker tread to the stringers, to make it look thicker maybe glue a narrow piece on the front edge.
Diagonal bracing will do a lot to make the whole structure rigid.

Pete

Originally Posted by pjt

Probably only marginal and very dependant on how well you fix the thicker tread to the stringers, to make it look thicker maybe glue a narrow piece on the front edge.
Diagonal bracing will do a lot to make the whole structure rigid.

Pete

Thanks Pete - sorry for the million questions , but I'm interested in the diagonal bracing ... can you describe, or provide a pic of how I might do this?