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  1. #1
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    Mar 2015
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    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
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    Default Timber Door Questions & Build

    Hi guys,

    Following on from a prior question about timber durability for exterior doors that I need to make for my timber frame garage I decided to go with Accoya Pine.

    IMG_20190626_132329_445.jpg

    One thing I didn't realise is that to remove the dark staining and blotching as well as sticker burn from the timber requires removal of 6mm off each face! So your 50mm stock becomes 38mm minus any bow, twist, cup etc. So I'm going to paint vs oil the doors as I don't want to lose that much.

    I have milled the stock and am laying out joinery now. I am not sure if I should go with through wedged tenons or pegged blind tenons? The stiles are 150mm so the rail tenons would be 16mm thick, 150mm deep and approx 110 to 130mm wide. I feel the wedged through tenons would be stronger (racking) for a 1500mm width door that won't have angled braces but add a significant amount of work and time. I would go with about 90-100mm deep tenons if blind. Also not sure if I should split the tenons into double tenons or if 130mm width is fine (again less work/time not to split).

    Whilst I like the idea of not using glue on the tenons so I can take the door apart in future for repair / maintenance I think I'm probably better off overall gluing them with epoxy or polyurethane glue?

    Hopefully I can finish layout tonight and start cutting on the weekend.

    Cheers,

    Dom

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Newcastle
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    Default

    Will those colours not just even out with some time exposed to sun and damp Dom? Isn’t it just weathering?

  4. #3
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    Mar 2015
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    Will those colours not just even out with some time exposed to sun and damp Dom? Isn’t it just weathering?
    No, when you plane a layer off the top the timber has black stains and streaks through it. Putting a tinted oil finish on that just looks really blotchy and dirty. I don't think it would even out with weathering. I don't have a good photo on hand but you can see a mild example in this one - many have far darker and far more streaks / mottling.

    20190630_172335.jpg

    Not really what I expected for over $5000- a cube
    Cheers, Dom

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Victoria
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    596

    Default

    I just looked up Accoya Pine and it’s radiata pine modified with acetylation ? Is it like pine to work with or does the modification change it ?

    Sam
    You boys like Mexico ?

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    244

    Default

    Ok, and these photos from the website show the same colouration, maybe that’s just a “feature”
    Rough sawn facade for Spanish health centre - Accoya

    if it weren’t for the sticker marks, I personally think the staining looks interesting.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I just looked up Accoya Pine and it’s radiata pine modified with acetylation ? Is it like pine to work with or does the modification change it ?

    Sam
    It's definitely different. Seems to be far harder and the density/hardness varies throughout noticeably. Even when crosscutting you can hear the circular saw working hard and changing in speed as it hits areas of higher density or hardness, the edge is often a bit wavy where the blade has been deflected through the cut. Trying to chisel a mortise yesterday it felt harder to chop than Tassie oak. The wood is also very "sticky". It's dry, but feels colder and damper than it should and also doesn't slide easily on iron tabletops etc - hard to describe. The dust is also very clumpy and fine - like mdf dust but clumpier/stickier.

    If it wasn't for the durability and hopefully stability I wouldn't work with it again.
    Cheers, Dom

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Millmerran,QLD
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    69
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    Default

    Dom

    1500mm is quite a wide door and in fact close to twice a standard door width, accepting that even standard door widths vary. Are you making several of these doors?

    Back to the width. You mentioned you will not be utilising braces. A traditional door of this size would be "framed, ledged and braced." It is braced for a good reason and that is the door will, over time, sag. The middle and bottom ledges or rails if you prefer traditionally had twin tenons and that resists sagging again. The face of the door in this style is tongued and grooved boards (or it can be a panelled door) and this means the middle and bottom rails are the thickness of the styles less the thickness of the TGV boards. The tongue and groove boards are let into the top rail.

    Again a traditional size for the middle and bottom rails was 225mm, not that going narrower is too much of an issue, but does partially explain why a double tenon was used. It is not so obvious on a narrower section. The bottom rail was not normally placed right at the bottom of the door with a tongue and groove door but would be with a panelled door.

    I probably should have asked initially what style of door you were planning, but the above may give some food for thought. Old time carpentry/builders books are good references for this type of joinery.

    Also I should take this opportunity on congratulating you on the shed build. It may have just raised the market value of all houses in your street by 10% .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Hunter Valley
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    51
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    Whilst I like the idea of not using glue on the tenons so I can take the door apart in future for repair / maintenance I think I'm probably better off overall gluing them with epoxy or polyurethane glue?
    Have you considered using Hide glue? It will buy you the possibility of future disassembly, yet give you the benefit and strength of a good glue now?

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Dom

    1500mm is quite a wide door and in fact close to twice a standard door width, accepting that even standard door widths vary. Are you making several of these doors?

    Back to the width. You mentioned you will not be utilising braces. A traditional door of this size would be "framed, ledged and braced." It is braced for a good reason and that is the door will, over time, sag. The middle and bottom ledges or rails if you prefer traditionally had twin tenons and that resists sagging again. The face of the door in this style is tongued and grooved boards (or it can be a panelled door) and this means the middle and bottom rails are the thickness of the styles less the thickness of the TGV boards. The tongue and groove boards are let into the top rail.

    Again a traditional size for the middle and bottom rails was 225mm, not that going narrower is too much of an issue, but does partially explain why a double tenon was used. It is not so obvious on a narrower section. The bottom rail was not normally placed right at the bottom of the door with a tongue and groove door but would be with a panelled door.

    I probably should have asked initially what style of door you were planning, but the above may give some food for thought. Old time carpentry/builders books are good references for this type of joinery.

    Also I should take this opportunity on congratulating you on the shed build. It may have just raised the market value of all houses in your street by 10% .

    Regards
    Paul
    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for your input. As with everything I seem to do the doors will be a little Frankensteinesque - driven by preferences of the boss of the house. I don't have a photo of the latest sketch handy but will essentially be similar to the lower doors in the pic below.

    20190706_085012.jpg

    So basically a rail and stile door with 4 rails (150mm for top 3 and 200mm for lower). Rather than panels there will be tongue and groove boards between the lower rails - i am worried about water ingress into the rail dado's and have considered rebating the tongue and groove boards so that the front surface overhangs the edge of the dado in the rail (if that makes sense) but not sure if this is necessary or helpful. Otherwise i'm relying on the magical properties of Accoya and a tight fit of the t&g in the dado's to prevent moisture problems.

    I will be using 600mm long strap hinges so am hoping that between those and the 4 rails with through tenons I won't have sagging issues. I could potentially add some diagonal braces at the rear of the door but they would be relatively thin and due to the 4 rail design would not be as effective as a longer brace with a higher angle.

    Going to start cutting mortises and tenons this morning so maybe a little late for large changes now, unless this design is absolutely doomed for failure?!

    Cheers, Dom

  11. #10
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    Mar 2015
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    Have you considered using Hide glue? It will buy you the possibility of future disassembly, yet give you the benefit and strength of a good glue now?
    Do you think that hide glue would hold up to exposure outdoors? I always thought that external use isn't recommended for hide glue?

    Cheers, Dom

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    Have you considered using Hide glue? It will buy you the possibility of future disassembly, yet give you the benefit and strength of a good glue now?
    Do you think that hide glue would hold up to exposure outdoors? I always thought that external use isn't recommended for hide glue?

    Cheers, Dom

  12. #11
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    Nov 2004
    Location
    Millmerran,QLD
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    Default

    Good luck Dom

    You do exceptional work. When considering the technical side of projects like this I try to imagine what is actually happening. So for this one I would imagine a medium size rascal of a child swinging off the non hinge side of the door. What is going to happen? To my mind this will be the effect of the forces at work over an extended period of time. certainly with four rails you are in with a better chance. If you have not already cut the M & Ts I would certainly use the double tennon as it will resist sag better.

    Interestingly, back in the day, the recommendations were to assemble the doors with paint, not glue. I don't quite know why this was and I have to say I have never had the courage to do it myself despite making a few in this style. I resorted to pinned mortice and tenon joints. The doors were Ironbark so fairly heavy and I could only just lift the standard sized doors. Ironbark was on reflection a poor choice as it is not stable enough. Timber doors and windows were traditionally made from quarter sawn timber deliberately for stability reasons.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Brisbane
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    753

    Default

    I used to make doors similar to this with T & G cladding and the method of fabrication was to reduce the thickness of the two bottom rails by that of the T&G so the boards could run full length and finish in a rebate at the bottom of the second rail down and each board was nailed to the rails.
    I would recommend through tennons with wedges with plenty of glue on everything. Being pine you don't want to have any moisture laying on top of rails.

  14. #13
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    Aug 2011
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    bilpin
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    Default

    I can remember as a kid having this style of doors on our garage. The opening was 3.6m wide with two doors of 1.8m each. There were no braces, only the cross rails. They stood for about 30 years before being replaced with a roller door as the boards had started to rot at the base. They never sagged noticeably which defies all logic, but would become difficult to shut in prolonged wet weather due to expansion.

  15. #14
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    Apr 2018
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    Nsw
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    I would be gluing the joints to ensure they stay tight and keep out the moisture.
    Not gluing them with the view to making maintenance easier is only going to bring the maintenance requirements on earlier in their life IMO

  16. #15
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    Default

    Thanks guys. I tend to agree that gluing the joints will be the way to go. I also decided to go with the through wedged tenons as well. I will use single not split tenons as I decided they are borderline small enough and because this will save some time having to cut less tapers in the mortises etc. I only have a handful of days to get these built before we go for a trip away. The boss has made it clear she'd like these in place before then to seal off entry to the side of the house and I agree.

    Double d that sounds logical and maybe I should have gone that route. Unfortunately Claire wanted to have some visible horizontal lines to hopefully blend better with the adjacent panel door and since this morning i've progressed beyond the point I can change. I think I will, however, rebate the tongue and groove boards such that the front face of each is forward of the dado in the rails and water shedding off these will not run into the dado if it opens up a little in time.

    Today I managed to finish marking out, then cut the 16 through wedged mortises, haunches, 8 blind mortises for the muntins, and made all the shoulder cuts for the tenons. Also routed the ogee moulding profile along the edges.

    20190706_192756.jpg

    20190706_192729.jpg

    20190706_192648.jpg

    20190706_192715.jpg

    20190706_192635.jpg

    Next steps will be - mark out window sash locations on the top rails and then finish routing the ogee edges, then cut the dados for the t&g, then cut the tenon cheeks and haunches, plane to fit, mitre the moulding to fit... i'll worry about the rest later haha!

    Won't have any time tomorrow so this will need to wait .

    Cheers, Dom

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