Thread: ER Collet Chuck Spindle Nose Blanks.

Would you prefer them to be made from some other material?

Personally I wouldn't be using 4140 as the most appropriate material to be screwing on to a hardened lathe spindle, nor what I would be supplying to others in a partially machined state to finish machining. But what would I know, right Peter?

[QUOTE=pipeclay;1341636]Can you if you dont mind measure the fit on your chucks,face plate etc to give an example of clearance please.
QUOTE]

Pipeclay,

- on my 260 Burnerd 3-jaw chuck backplate the clearance to the registration is 0.13mm, as good as I can measure it. This means that you are 100% right, the stock backplate is NOT using the registration at all for centering.

- on my 260 spindle nose, the registration itself has a runout of almost 0.02mm. And its finish is too poor to ever be used as a registration. This means that this spindle nose as is, does not lend itself to take a plain collet chuck if accuracy is of any concern. In this particular detail, I am afraid it is pretty much the same as can be found on a Chinese AL50 from Hare and Forbes.

- on my 260, the spindle nose threads are only cut, NOT precision ground as one would expect from a "precision" lathe. This means that the threads alone are unlikely to ever center any chuck to a repeatability better than some 0.05mm.

What this all means is that the 260 simply never was intended to be a toolroom class lathe. To be fair, it also cost far less than a Schaublin or a Hardinge. And so you were 100% right again, on Hercus lathes the registration was never intended to be used.

That said, neither was a collet chuck ever intended to be used. Indeed it never existed as a genuine Hercus accessory. Probably exactly because of the inaccuracies in above spindle nose. Instead, the 260 used C4 collets that were mounted to the internal MT4 spindle taper via an adapter and a draw tube. It looks like to me, that on a Hercus 260 only a set-tru type of collet chuck can bring the runout figures one would normally demand from using collets. Unfortunately this needs to be set true every time it is mounted.

It would be immensely helpful to hear from as many as possible other Hercus users what their observations are. Personally I am still looking out for an affordable set of C4 collets (I already have the original draw tube and spindle protection nut). Should these never turn up, I will probably go for a "set-tru" type collet chuck. In the meantme I just keep using the smaller lathe I have that has a short taper mount for the ER25 collet chuck, and is overall more accurate than the 260.

Chris

Interesting observations there on the Hercus 260 vs the H&F AL-50 (9x20).

I wonder whether the same would apply to the other (earlier?) Hercus lathes?

Chris, I use an MT3 to ER32 collet adaptor in my 9" and it's extraordinarily accurate. I don't know if I just got lucky when I bought this particular one, but not only can I not measure any inaccuracy, I can't even see any obvious discontinuity if I remove the part, reverse and replace it. However the MT3 component in this requires a drawbar and a spindle nose adaptor would have the benefit of allowing longer raw stock to pass through the collet and down the spindle bore.

With regards a spindle nose adaptor it doesn't rely on either the accuracy of the threads nor the registration per se for accurate results. As it is machined on the lathe on which it will be used, and belongs solely to that machine, it only requires to register in the same place each time.

Pete

I have a backplate mounted ER25 collet chuck, backplate (M39x4) from LMS in the US, ER25 chuck from Chronos UK. Once the chuck was mounted on the back plate the accuracy was very good and what's more repeatable on re-mounting on the spindle. I also have an MT3 ER25 chuck but as I often work on longer bar stock this is quite limiting.

As I am thinking of going over to ER32, I quite often exceed the 16mm maximum capacity of the ER25, I was hoping to get a spindle mounted adapter like the the ER25 one from Vicmarc for my wood lathe. Much smaller than the 100mm diameter of the current backplate mounted chuck.

As my lathe is supposedly capable of cutting a M39x4mm thread maybe I should just bite the bullet and make my own.

Originally Posted by Pete F

Personally I wouldn't be using 4140 as the most appropriate material to be screwing on to a hardened lathe spindle, nor what I would be supplying to others in a partially machined state to finish machining. But what would I know, right Peter?

I have no idea what you might or might not know.
I would like to have your reasons as to why 4140 would not be appropriate for screwing onto a spindle and why you feel it shouldnt be supplied for others to finish machine.
And if possable what you think would be a suitable material to use.

Peter as this is presumably another project you're intending to sell for profit, far be it for me to give "advice", good, bad, or indifferent, on how to run a business. However have you thought about why most things screwed to the lathe spindle are made from low tensile material?

No I havent given that any thought,and I would very much appreciate it if you could enlighten me on the Pros and Cons of choice of material.

In regards to running a bussiness couldnt be further from reality,of course I am not going to give the items away that I make,I make these different items to suit these machines mainly from enjoyment,then because they are not allways readily available,.
All of the items that I make are made on manual machines and can be very time consuming,when I do advertise I believe my prices are quite reasonable.

In regards to running a bussiness couldnt be further from reality,of course I am not going to give the items away that I make,I make these different items to suit these machines mainly from enjoyment,then because they are not allways readily available,.

Personally Peter I view this board as a way to get together and help/get help from like minded people. Indeed just yesterday a member contacted me and asked if I could help him out with a small powder coating job, if so how much would it cost. Given how generous some members have been toward me when they've been able to help, the answer was naturally, "of course" at the usual rate for board members ie zilch. Whenever anyone insists on paying for my labour I instead ask them to make a donation to their local SIDS foundation.

As any regular reader here knows, I call it the way I see it and if that treads on toes, well so what. So I'll likewise call this one as I see it. Despite your claim, until now all of the products you have been selling Peter are readily available elsewhere. I certainly wouldn't expect you to "give them away". In fact I think it's quite reasonable that you recover your material costs, plus a bit to cover beers while working However you charge about the same, or in some cases more than the alternative sources, so how is that not running a business? Indeed just last week a member was after a part for his lathe and rather than simply telling the poor bugger where he could get it you had your hand out for a slice of the action! You want to hang your shingle out and supply parts for lathes, knock yourself out, good on you in fact as I admire those willing to give things a go. But please don't pretend you're doing it as an act of extraordinary generosity to members here as I've read many people commenting to you that they think you're charging too much for something you're claiming is a hobby.

Pete

Pete F. Without getting into a debate about the correctness of your comments. These are your beliefs and I don't judge you for that but I don't see the point in slandering another board member on here in this manner. If you trully believe what you are saying I would suggest a personal message to Pipeclay and stop the public slander. Personally I see no point in it.

Everyone to their own opinion Pete F,excepted but not respected.

Not sure if your reference was to the $90 for the 63/64 compound or the $65 exchange for a re ringed backgear or was there something else.

If you take a little more time to read my posts you would notice that I attempt to give allternative places to look for parts and often tell people to check prices first.

I would very much like you to at least let me know what items I may be trying to sell that are more expensive.

You appear to follow what I try to attempt to sell closely,there fore you must have suppliers in mind that supply what I make and as you say is readily available,would you mind listing those suppliers so other members can have an allternative if they wish.

Once again as I said before this is NO bussiness,yes I charge for material and what I think is a fair price,I dont believe I have taken advantage of any of the people that I have dealt with,(if any member here who has dealt with me and thinks that I may of taken advantage orovercharges I appoligise)..

Your comments about people saying they think Im over chargeing I can comment on as I CANT recall any,if you can locate them could you please quote them.

I am confused with your remark about an act of extraordinary generosity,what I do is definately NOT an act of extraordinary generosity,what it is,is an attempt to fill what I thought might be a gap
in readily available items.

What is an act of Extraordinary Generosity is the time and effort I put in to help members who may contact me with questions.

I hope you will be able to find the things that I have asked for,and if at all possable can you answer the question about not using 4140 on the spindle shaft.

Originally Posted by wannabe

Pete F. Without getting into a debate about the correctness of your comments. These are your beliefs and I don't judge you for that but I don't see the point in slandering another board member on here in this manner. If you trully believe what you are saying I would suggest a personal message to Pipeclay and stop the public slander. Personally I see no point in it.

Peter, this is the definition of slander, and as you will see there is not an ounce of it in my comments.

slander |ˈslɑːndə|
noun Law
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation

I have no intent on continuing this as a "discussion" Peter (Pipeclay). I've said what I've felt needed to be said and that's it as far as I'm concerned. On the one hand you say these items are not available, then you say you tell people of alternative sources. On the one hand you say you don't know of alternative sources, then on the other hand you say you tell people of other sources.

For the record this is a just a couple or other sources of parts, they have appeared here many times:
Australian Metalworking Hobbyist I have absolutely no connection with this company, however can testify that the gentleman who runs that is just that, a gentleman, who is extremely knowledgeable and generous with his information on these lathes.
Tools4cheap LLC Online Machine Shop Tooling Store: Metric Transposing Gear Set to fit South Bend 9"B & C,Other Lathe Tooling - Thread Dials, Metric Gears , Micrometer Stop, Cross Slide Nuts, Tail Stock Turrets Again, a very nice guy to deal with.

I'm sure you have good reasons why you shouldn't simply tell the member where to buy the replacement gear for his lathe instead of offering it to him for the price "plus your expenses", those reasons certainly didn't seem obvious at the time however.

As I said Peter, that's all I intend to say on this, and I have already mentioned I wish you well on your business sideline.

Pete

It appears for at least this time you havent in my opinion been able to source your knowledge from books.

I dont believe that I have ever told people that items are not available,and tell them of other sources.

I believe I have said they may not be available but to try other sources.

I dont know of a lot of allternative sources of where these parts are except for the ones I can find on the internet,alot of times I wont go to any great detail with links as I feel they can look for themselves.

With regards to the Australian site you linked to I have mentioned this site in some of my replies to posts.

In regards to the US site I have never mentioned it or any other offshore site,there are all on the net and people can find it if they care to look.

I think I nearly allways tell people to try Hercus.

It appears that you like to ASSUME,thats great,but this time it really has come back to bite you.

IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO READ THE POST THAT THE MEMBER SUBMITTED ABOUT THAT GEAR,YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT I DID MENTION A LOCAL SOURCE OF WHERE TO POSSABLY LOCATE A REPLACEMENT.
IT SEEMS YOU MAY OF MISSED THIS.
PROBABLY NO ONE ELSES BUSSINESS APART FROM MYSELF AND THE PERSON LOOKING FOR THE GEAR,BUT JUST TO PUT YOUR MIND AT EASE I DIDNT MAKE THAT GEAR.
ITS IDIOTS YES IDIOTS LIKE YOURSELF ASSUMING THINGS THAT CAN CREATE CONFLICT.

Just for the record I contacted Ken through the Forum after he had no luck with his attempt with Hare and Forbes.I rang them and got the avalability and part number for the particular gear in question,I was told about $40 by them over the phone.

I posted my reply $40 plus my costs,I could of simply siad $40 plus post picked the part up and posted.Unfortunately an IDIOT has read more into it.

For the record the final cost to the member was $53,for a rough break down Postage $6.70, Part Cost $38,my time,my fuel,my Tolls $8.30.

IT IN MY OPINION ITS BEEN A LONG TIME COMING FOR YOU TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF BUT I BELIEVE YOU FINALLY HAVE.

I have dealt with some of the members of this Forum personally and over the phone and internet,and have recieved in my opinion very nice feedback from them, either in the items I have supplied or the help or information I have been able to give.

I would still appreciate if you could answer the question that this has mostly all stemed from,why is using 4140 as a Screw on adaptor for a Threaded Spindle not good.