Thread: Hercus 260 advice please

Hi Greg,

I had a Super 7 for a while, but didn't do heaps of work on it. I think the thing that you would miss the most on the ML7 is the lever operated clutch.

I don't really consider one to be massively superior to the other, but the spindle bore on the myfords is absolutely pathetic.

I'm not aware of any real common or universal issues with the Hercus 260. Particularly as the spindle is on tapered roller bearings and it comes from a design that evolved over a long time, plus Hercus fixed a lot of the know issues with the SB's when they started copying them.

Given that many came out of schools, you need to inspect them closely and carefully. Look for:

Damage due to abuse, things like broken bull gear teeth and broken gear teeth on the feed / screw cutting gears.

Tailstock s/n not matching (not necessarily an issue but atleast you know).

Damage due to lack of lubrication or lack of adjustment.

Thanks for the advice. My ML7 doesn't have a clutch, and it would certainly be nice. I was thinking of travelling down the Super 7 path for that reason, but the spindle bore size on the Hercus 260 is the clincher for me I think. I'm thinking of running a 3 phase motor through a VFD to compensate for the lack of a clutch on the Hercus. 3 phase motors are happier than single phase with the constant stop start while threading without a clutch I think.

Originally Posted by gbdjm

any known issues with this model Hercus and what features / accessories you guys might consider necessary or desirable.

Suggest remove apron and clean out behind the steel plate covering the clutch/worm gear. It can catch debris and get clogged up - symptom is it doesn't seem to accept oil going in through the oil fitting.
You can get a slotted cross slide for it, so it'd be more like your Myford. I much prefer that over the original, mostly because it's easy to place things on the flat surface - dial indicators, etc.
Lots of accessories still around for small Hercus lathes, as South Bend and Boxford make things that are directly usable.
The spindle nose thread is unique to the 260, so good chucks and faceplate included would be a plus.

Jordan

Originally Posted by nadroj

Suggest remove apron and clean out behind the steel plate covering the clutch/worm gear. It can catch debris and get clogged up - symptom is it doesn't seem to accept oil going in through the oil fitting.
You can get a slotted cross slide for it, so it'd be more like your Myford. I much prefer that over the original, mostly because it's easy to place things on the flat surface - dial indicators, etc.
Lots of accessories still around for small Hercus lathes, as South Bend and Boxford make things that are directly usable.
The spindle nose thread is unique to the 260, so good chucks and faceplate included would be a plus.

Jordan

Thanks Jordan. That's exactly the sort of advice I'm looking for. Mal at AMH has some very good CTM 260's at present. I'm thinking to get a really good CTM and convert to ATM might be easier than finding a barely used ATM.
Cheers.

I'm not convinced it's easier to upgrade a C to an A, over just buying a good A to begin with. Seems like a lot of work, and could be just as expensive.
Another Hercus/SB quirk I just remembered for the clutch models (A & B) - The screw that retains the clutch knob has a left hand thread. Turning it clockwise undoes it. It's a small thread and will likely snap off if you go the wrong way.

Jordan

Originally Posted by gbdjm

I'm looking at replacing my Myford ML7 with a Hercus 260, fundamentally get a more useful spindle bore size and slightly larger overall capacity. I've had the Myford for a few years now and have become quite familiar with it's assets and limitations. I guess what I'm after is some opinions on any known issues with this model Hercus and what features / accessories you guys might consider necessary or desirable.
Cheers,
Greg M

Greg, the two lathes look very similar to begin with, but the Hercus 260 is overall larger and heavier. The myford is essentially a 7" swing lathe, the Hercus is a 10" swing lathe.

The Myford ML7 weighs 100kg with motor and base, the Myford super 7 weighs 111kg with motor and base. The short bed Hecus 260 is 155kg, the long bed is 235kg. That makes the Hercus considerably more rigid.

The Hercus does 260mm swing all over the bedways, the Myford has a gap bed and does 256mm swing in the narrow gap and 178mm swing over the bedways.

The Myford is a purebred lightweight hobbylathe. It is designed for the home shop and for the model engineer. It is the largest and heaviest lathe suitable to be installed in a spare bedroom. The Hercus 260 is a light industrial lathe, a slightly improved Australian licence over the very successful US-American Sothbend 10K lathe. Both lathes are relatively old designs based on the pre WW2 era. Both lathes use imperial threads and fasteners, regardless if the leadscrews are metric or imperial.

The Myford uses a combination spindle bearing with a hand scraped tapered bronze bearing on the right and two preloaded angular contact ball bearings on the left. This makes it a spindle suitable for high precision and capable of highest surface finishes. The Hercus uses automotive grade taper roller bearings as standard, unless you find a rare 260 that came with the optional high precision package that included precision taper roller bearings and lathe alignment to half the normally allowed tolerances. Both lathes use a rather obsolete threaded spindle nose.

There is a huge number of plans to make accessories for the Myford. It is still wordwide the best known and most used model engineering lathe. The Hercus 260 can tap into many spare parts and accessory designs made for the Southbend lathes (many parts are interchangeable).

The Myford seems to retain its value somewhat better - even totally worn out Myfords still fetch incredibly high prices and sell easily. In Australia the Hercus 260 was mostly used in schools for training. Chris

Very useful advice, thanks guys.
Is there a simple way to tell if a 260 is the high precision version?
A code stamped on the machine somewhere perhaps?
From what I've read so far, it seems that I may have to forego some accuracy for increased capacity if I chose the 260 over a Super 7, unless I can score a high precision model.

Originally Posted by gbdjm

............Is there a simple way to tell if a 260 is the high precision version? A code stamped on the machine somewhere perhaps?............

N at serial number stamped between the bedways from top at the tailstock = high precision model. But there are not many N models around. Also keep in mind that worn out or not well cared for N model may overall be less accurate than a well preserved and well looked after standard model.

Other codes are L for long bed, M for metric leadscrew, H for flame hardened bedways. H is of course desirable, but remember that hardened bedways cannot be restored by scraping, only by grinding!

> ........From what I've read so far, it seems that I may have to forego some accuracy for increased capacity if I chose the 260 over a Super 7, unless I can score a high precision model.......

I think the accuracy of both lathes is absolutely comparable, if anything I would expect an N model Hercus to be more accurate than a Myford. If you are not yet an experienced lathe user, it may take some time before you aquire the skills to notice any difference.

I do not recommend that you base your decision for/against a lathe on the type of spindle bearings. It's just one of many things to consider. The Myford spindle bearings will make for "rounder" workpieces and for a slightly finer surface finish. Its better suited to make small workpieces to a degree of accuracy that in industry is usually only attempted by grinding. Makes sense, since a model engineer rarely owns a toolpost grinder and has no other choice than achieve perfect fits by turning alone. It is a fact that the lathe capable of the finest finishes has sleeve bearings and belt drive, whereas lathes with a geared head and roller bearings fall short on finish. It is also a fact that "toolrom class" lathes either have sleeve spindle bearings or very expensive high precision roller bearings. A downside of sleeve bearings is that they need to float on an oil film. This means that the center height of the spindle in standstill is slightly lower than the center height when running. Also sleeve bearings have a limited top speed, whereas roller bearings (regardless if automotive grade or high precision) can spin faster. An important consideration when upgrading to variable speed, and an advantage if you plan using carbide insert tooling that needs high surface speeds to work well. What is best for you depends both on what you do, and on your particular preference how to do what you do. Chris

Originally Posted by nadroj

Suggest remove apron and clean out behind the steel plate covering the clutch/worm gear. It can catch debris and get clogged up - symptom is it doesn't seem to accept oil going in through the oil fitting.

Jordan,
Is that the oil fitting right at the bottom of the apron? Mine doesn't seem to pass oil.

Originally Posted by nadroj

You can get a slotted cross slide for it, so it'd be more like your Myford. I much prefer that over the original, mostly because it's easy to place things on the flat surface - dial indicators, etc.

Greg,
If you can't get an original Hercus slotted cross slide, this bloke has some for sale. A bit under $400 airmailed to Oz:

Page Title

Chris

Originally Posted by jack620

Jordan,
Is that the oil fitting right at the bottom of the apron? Mine doesn't seem to pass oil.
Chris

Yes. I advise pulling the apron off and cleaning out the space behind the sheetmetal plate.

Jordan

OK, will do.

This is a good guide to pulling apart the apron: http://steammachine.com/hercus/index.html
Includes a cautionary tale.

Jordan

Gee that poor bugger got done over didn't he?

Thanks for the link. Since my apron isn't giving me any grief, I think I'll just remove it and give it a good wash with kero rather than strip it down. I will remove the clutch cover plate though.

Chris

Originally Posted by rickw72

Hi Greg,

I had a Super 7 for a while, but didn't do heaps of work on it. I think the thing that you would miss the most on the ML7 is the lever operated clutch.

I don't really consider one to be massively superior to the other, but the spindle bore on the myfords is absolutely pathetic.

I'm not aware of any real common or universal issues with the Hercus 260. Particularly as the spindle is on tapered roller bearings and it comes from a design that evolved over a long time, plus Hercus fixed a lot of the know issues with the SB's when they started copying them.

Given that many came out of schools, you need to inspect them closely and carefully. Look for:

Damage due to abuse, things like broken bull gear teeth and broken gear teeth on the feed / screw cutting gears.

Tailstock s/n not matching (not necessarily an issue but atleast you know).

Damage due to lack of lubrication or lack of adjustment.

Is there some further information like a list or a summary of what the known issues are with Southbend Lathes and in what ways Hercus remedied or improved on the Southbend design ?
Maybe there is something about this in earlier postings to the Hercus Area ?

Donald T (not Rumsfeld)