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Thread: Hercus 3A T&C grinder
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25th May 2014, 10:06 AM #1GOLD MEMBER
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Hercus 3A T&C grinder
Hi all Hercus owners,
Yesterday I purchased a 3A T&C grinder. No accessories just the bare bones machine, oh it did come with 1/2 dozen wheels, a vice and a magnetic chuck. All for $260 ($250 for the T&C and he threw in the mag chuck for $10)
My intent is to use it to sharpen lathe tools with exact and repeatable geometries. I plan on using an adjustable angle plate & vice or other combination. I may even buy a basic grinding fixture, or make one.
Anyway, I have since taken some measurements of the table & ways for wear and am pleased to report a total of about a thou or less at any x y position on the table. In fact in the X axis it's a fraction of a thou. For the price it has exceeded my expectations.
Needless to say I have no real plans to modify or make any repairs but I do intend to do my usual and give it a good clean. Actually I do intend on one mod, I will make a basic way cover for the Y and Z which seem to be notorious for collecting grinding dust and wearing.
My question to all the proud Hercus owners out there is when I remove the table to clean the balls and the ways, do I need to "number" the balls and put them back in order or do I assume that they must be "reasonably" all the same and clean them all together in a pile and put them back in any order?
I'm thinking they can be put back in any order since each ball moves up and down within the brass retainer on the ways anyway….
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Cheers,
PS really sorry about the orientation of the pics..
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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25th May 2014, 12:34 PM #2Mechanical Butcher
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I didn't know about balls to support the table on Hercus 3A. An upgrade?
Jordan
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25th May 2014, 12:57 PM #3GOLD MEMBER
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In all honesty I'm not that familiar with Hercus machines in general (my first one) let alone the family of T&C grinders. I have read that the No.1 and No.3 had "regular" V ways and the 3A came out with balls on "linear" hardened ways or tracks. I know that it's standard on the 3A because of several searches on this forum and receiving advice from Anorak Bob.
It's certainly a clever and interesting method. The hardened tracks are also removable and held in with cap screws although I dare not remove them for fear of never getting them "just right" again.
It also occurred to me that if the ways are badly worn, would replacing the balls with slightly different diameter work? This would mean they would seat in a different (unworn) spot on the V. Only issue I can see is one side on the bottom is flat and so would not help and also the rack may not mesh properly with the traverse. Anyway, no need to worry about any of that with this machine, but I do like to think of stuff like that!
I'm taking them to work tonight to burn the midnight oil cleaning some parts, including my balls. If I don't receive any advice on the balls, I'll be inclined to just throw them in the tray with turps and clean them all together.
Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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25th May 2014, 11:57 PM #4
Ouch my neck hurts.....
The balls should all be identical, so no need to number them. Though i guess its too late now anyway....
You can't just change the size of the balls, as one runner runs in 2 V's and one runs on a V and a flat. If you go to a bigger ball one of the runners will sit up higher than the other. I think.....
Once apon a time you may have been able to get new tracks to replace the old ones. I'm guessing not any more however there are companies in the states that sell retro fit kits for grinders. Can't imagine they would be cheap though.
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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26th May 2014, 12:17 AM #5GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Ueee, I figured they must be identical, or should be anyway. WRT the balls I see what you mean, because one side is V on V and the other is V on flat the result would have an affect of tilting the table and throwing off the vertical alignment. I figured that the intent of the track removal was for replacement but I bet they would cost more than a S/H machine!
Any idea when these things were made? There is a stamp on the table: 3A-679 would this possibly mean it was made in 9th month of 1967?
Edit: Oh wrt the balls I didn't number them but I kept each side separate.
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Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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26th May 2014, 01:07 AM #6GOLD MEMBER
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Spent a bit of time cleaning parts today.
Tonight I just finished cleaning the table. I removed the top half of the table from it's base to give it a good clean. There was a fair amount of crud, build up of grinding dust and some rust. I used some steel wool to get most of it off. I may just lightly run a silicon carbide lapping stone over it. It is still stained but if you close your eyes you can't feel anything.
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Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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26th May 2014, 10:42 AM #7.
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Simon,
The No 3 had vee ways. The 3A and its revised successor, the No.1, both had the table mounted on hardened balls running in hardened steel tracks.
How smooth was the table traverse? My 1's is silken and traverses effortlessly.
BT
ps. Don't be misled by the information Tony Griffiths has on his lathes.co site. What he is calling a No. 1 is a 3A.
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26th May 2014, 04:18 PM #8GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Bob,
That explains the heading No.1 and then the first and biggest picture is a 3A. It confused me at first but at the start all I knew was that the T&C for sale was what was in that pic. The small perpendicular hand wheel is the biggest give away.
It's a beautiful machine I must say. I took everything apart and cleaned it and back together. Everything fits beautifully and it's simplicity at it's best. Even the taper dowel pins (in lie of those awful roll pins) that fit the bevel gears on the shafts etc are a joy to drift out and put back. If they don't almost fall into place then you know that it's out of alignment. The ball bearing table takes a bit of getting used to. A couple of times I've nearly send it flying (lucky for end stops).
Yes, if the rest of Hercus stuff is this nice then it won't be my last acquisition bearing the Hercus name.
Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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26th May 2014, 04:29 PM #9GOLD MEMBER
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Hercus
Simon
Hercus equipment in my opinion is first class.
Bob & I have often commented on the workmanship of Hercus.
They made things good, unfortunately, a lot of Hercus machines have been abused & had rough treatment.
When you find a good one, suggest hang on to it !
regards
Bruce
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26th May 2014, 05:08 PM #10.
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Simon,
Here's a link to a site has has some pretty comprehensive Clarkson information should you wish to find out more about your hybrid's spindle - http://www.bedroom-workshop.com/index.htm
Bob.
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26th May 2014, 06:00 PM #11GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Bruce & Bob.
I couldn't help myself, I have dis-assembled the spindle. Nothing hi tech there, just a shaft and a couple of 7100 taper roller bearings. Wasn't sure what I would find to be honest. Was half expecting a P4 or P5 precision bearing but I guess it's not a SG as such. I guess as nice as it is, as it really would be a compromise to use it as a SG. Anyway I'll give them a good clean and put them back. I'll have a good look at the race, any hint of wear and I'll replace them.
So, if I were to acquire a spindle and a dead centre, what sort of quality could I expect if I were to use it as a cylindrical grinder?
Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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28th May 2014, 04:27 PM #12.
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Simon,
I can't comment on the attainable finish because I haven't yet tried out cylindrical grinding (or any grinding ) on the No.1 yet. I'm looking forward to a bit of experimenting.
Here are some photos of Mickey Mouse setups I had tried on the No.3 in the absence of proper tooling. I'm not suggesting you need to start tracking down Hercus accessories but the photos might suggest some easy make dos with a few basic bits of tooling. The dividing head setup was a way of possibly overcoming the excessive wear in the table by angling the head and tailstock. The mill photo simply shows the flexibility of a lathe milling attachment combined with an indexer.
BT
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29th May 2014, 10:49 AM #13GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Bob, You have been extremely helpful. Those pics are of showroom quality (Donna Hayes) that I have come to expect from you!
First things first I suppose, so I have just made up some T nuts since none of my other sets will fit it. The thin part of the "T" is 1/2" and so I can only assume the thread may have been 3/8" or perhaps 5/16"? I'm not that good with imperial! I propose to make it M8. I was going to go for M10 but that would only leave 1mm of meat each side. M8 should be plenty for what this thing will be doing. I reckon I would still rip the T nut out of the table before stripping an M8 thread anyway...
Later I am going to try and kill 2 birds with one stone and make a ball/radius turning attachment for the lathe and make perhaps make an adapter so I can use it on the T&C grinder too.
Edit: PS WRT surface grinding, I'm assuming it will be a compromise compared to a dedicated SG. It would have to be. But, for many of my projects, just having the option of a ground surface (even for athletics) will be handy. As someone here mentioned, just having something to be able to grind down a washer for a shim will be attainable.
Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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29th May 2014, 11:39 AM #14.
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Simon,
The original tee bolts are 3/8" BSW threaded with a 7/8 x 7/8 base. The thickness of the base is about 1/4 ".
On the beater the tee slot was rooted, its upper surface riddled with dents. My plan at the time was to run a tee slot cutter through the slot to knock off the projections. Didn't get to it in the end. I still have the 3 table and sub table but they may both end up as fodder for some other project because with the No.1, Hercus changed the table's handing.
Peter Fou, the fellow I purchased the No.1 from, did use the grinder for some cylindrical grinding along with some surface grinding. He threw in a neat little Indian magnetic chuck for me to have a go at the latter. Maybe some simple washer thinning.
BT
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29th May 2014, 05:32 PM #15GOLD MEMBER
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Well, I did M8 and when I looked at them they looked a bit light on so I re-drilled them and re-tapped to M10. They look better now. There is just enough meat in the T nut to allow for M10. I'm thinking I should have gone 3/8 since the table hold down bolts are probably 3/8 too. Now it's got metric AND imperial. I'll need a million and one spanners to work on it now! Oh well, it will just be like old times… working on my landrover series 111
Edit: yea I metricised the T nut dimensions too. They are 16mm high, base is around 20mm wide and about 6mm thick. They fit nicely.
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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