Thread: new hercus 9 what is it worth

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Mal, I think you could sell maybe one a week, if you keep the basic price below AU$ 3.5K. Or say below $5k, with all the accessories that nowadays come with a similar size Chinese lathe. It would cost you at least 2 to 3 times as much to manufacture such lathe, though. Chris

Yea I would agree...

Can someone make a lathe... Sure it is not that hard....You just have to read the old model engineering magazines to see what people would make in their own home in ye old days... Even today you see small machine tools made with modern materials... Linear rails for ways, CNC control in the home shop...

Is it feasible to make a hercus type lathe in Australia for a profit.... Hell no way in the world...

For an example..... How many gears would be needed? I have not counted how many on a Hercus 260..... I will guess 20.... How much would 20 gears cost to cut in Australia today?

If you are going to do it inhouse, then you will need either a hobber or a fellows gear cutter... Then you have to make the blanks, then you have to bore the blanks, then you have to cut the keyways... How much will it cost to tool up for that alone? Just for the gears? If you cut them inhouse..

If you put them out to contract how much cheaper will it be?

Lets get onto the spindle... 40mm bore is mentioned and a camlock spindle... Does that mean the spindle will need to be forged to size or cut from solid.... What is the OD of a D1-4 camlock? 100mm? Then you need the ID bored out.... The camlock will need to be hardened... You will need the spindle internal taper to be ground......

Say you use tapered rollers for spindle bearings... What precision will they be? Remembering that the bigger the bearing the greater the allowable runout.. You want it better then a chinese one so does that mean using Prec3 or P5 bearings? For the bearing preload adjustment nut on the spindle... That thread will need to be ground because the adjustment nut has to do up perfectly square, otherwise your spindle bearings are not running true..

Looking at the sheer number of castings on Hercus lathe.... It is immense.. Every one requiring a pattern.. pattern making is an art of it's own... Then you need jibs and all sorts of machines to machine all those castings... Even something really simple like the quick change gear box selector lever... Look at how many parts go into making that alone... How many holes to drill, how many cross holes to drill for the roll pins..

The apron is quite simple on a Hercus, but how easy would it be to design one and build it.... Again the number of holes needed the shafts needed, not to mention the lubrication system needed..

Not wanting to put you off, BUT while a Hercus looks simple from the outside, have a close look at the work that really goes into making them..

And I have only touched the surface on a few points...

Making a manual lathe is easily possible, but it is not feasible to make one in Australia for sale..

I would suggest you turn to looking at modern methods... Linear rails, electronic controls.. And make one for the fun of it...

Originally Posted by .RC.

Yea I would agree...

Can someone make a lathe... Sure it is not that hard....You just have to read the old model engineering magazines to see what people would make in their own home in ye old days... Even today you see small machine tools made with modern materials... Linear rails for ways, CNC control in the home shop...

Is it feasible to make a hercus type lathe in Australia for a profit.... Hell no way in the world...

For an example..... How many gears would be needed? I have not counted how many on a Hercus 260..... I will guess 20.... How much would 20 gears cost to cut in Australia today?

If you are going to do it inhouse, then you will need either a hobber or a fellows gear cutter... Then you have to make the blanks, then you have to bore the blanks, then you have to cut the keyways... How much will it cost to tool up for that alone? Just for the gears? If you cut them inhouse..

If you put them out to contract how much cheaper will it be?

Lets get onto the spindle... 40mm bore is mentioned and a camlock spindle... Does that mean the spindle will need to be forged to size or cut from solid.... What is the OD of a D1-4 camlock? 100mm? Then you need the ID bored out.... The camlock will need to be hardened... You will need the spindle internal taper to be ground......

Say you use tapered rollers for spindle bearings... What precision will they be? Remembering that the bigger the bearing the greater the allowable runout.. You want it better then a chinese one so does that mean using Prec3 or P5 bearings? For the bearing preload adjustment nut on the spindle... That thread will need to be ground because the adjustment nut has to do up perfectly square, otherwise your spindle bearings are not running true..

Looking at the sheer number of castings on Hercus lathe.... It is immense.. Every one requiring a pattern.. pattern making is an art of it's own... Then you need jibs and all sorts of machines to machine all those castings... Even something really simple like the quick change gear box selector lever... Look at how many parts go into making that alone... How many holes to drill, how many cross holes to drill for the roll pins..

The apron is quite simple on a Hercus, but how easy would it be to design one and build it.... Again the number of holes needed the shafts needed, not to mention the lubrication system needed..

Not wanting to put you off, BUT while a Hercus looks simple from the outside, have a close look at the work that really goes into making them..

And I have only touched the surface on a few points...

Making a manual lathe is easily possible, but it is not feasible to make one in Australia for sale..

I would suggest you turn to looking at modern methods... Linear rails, electronic controls.. And make one for the fun of it...

Mal
I would have to agree with RC on the above.
Since you visited me last week to get some measurements & discuss the Hercus 260 Ive given the subject lathe, a lot of thought.
While it would be great to see the rebirth of an Australian lathe, it just doesnt seem feasible with all of the manufacturing variables & related costs in this country in this day & age.
However, replacement Hercus parts could be a possible, proposition.
regards
Bruce

Originally Posted by Abratool

it just doesnt seem feasible with all of the manufacturing variables & related costs in this country in this day & age.
However, replacement Hercus parts could be a possible, proposition.

Now there's an interesting idea. We have at least one local bloke making chuck mounting plates. I bought some South Bend and Boxford accessories for my Hercus lathes from overseas, but could have provided some work for Aussies and saved on postage if they were available here. I wouldn't mind some upgrade parts, like cross slide screws fitted with thrust ball bearings. Maybe even some satin chromed dials for easier reading. Not as ambitious as a whole lathe, but could keep some people busy making useful bits.

Jordan

But would the anal retentive fools buy or use them.

Guys,
Thanks for all the input, I'll consider everything you've had to say. As for remaking the Hercus parts, we currently remake or source about 28 new parts for the Hercus and all the gears which are now professionally gear hobbed. There are many more parts on the drawing board but unfortuneately the financing of these through prototyping to pattern making to test casting to test machining and then into final production is quite expensive and relies on the website to finance it. Basically all funds generated through sales go back out into making more things (except for a few toys I pick up for myself).
The ultimate aim was to make as many Hercus type parts available as new parts as possible, hence the thought of a new machine because I'll have most of it made already.

Things we currently make or are in the process of making:

1. crosslide spindle nuts imperial and metric
2. compound spindle nuts imperial and metric
3. half nuts imperial and metric (in pattern making)
4. compound top castings (in test machining stage) this was a tough one to get made cheap enough.
5. 260 faceplates
6. threaded backing plates
7. bull pin springs
8. bull gears
9. all change gears
10.gearbox gears
11. gearboxes (in pattern making)
12. saddle lock
13. counter shaft bushes
15. compound spindles imperial and metric
16. crosslide spindles imperial and metric (currently in production)
17. 260 travelling steadies
18. 260 t-slotted crosslide (in costing stage) also a 9" version to follow. My thanks to abratool for the dimensions.
19. 3/8 square head toolpost setscrews
20. way felt retainers
21. way felts
22. tailstock handwheels (being cast at the moment)
23. compound crank handle (currently in production)
24. crosslide crank handle (currently in production)
25. crank handle dome nuts (currently in production)
26. crosslide dials and bushes (dies for scales currently being made)
27. 4 way tool posts
28. 1/2 moons for the lantern toolpost

many more are currently waiting for the funds to start production.


If anyone is wondering how commited to this I am, I'll let you figure out what this has cost, but it's not a small number.

Many thanks for the contributions of some members of this forum that have made it possible to get this far.

Hopefully before too much longer the practice of wrecking machines for parts will be unneccessary and not a viable practice for profit, something I'm sure we would all be greatful for.

regards Mal

Mal,
I'll take a #12 and #18 when they are ready.
Chris

Originally Posted by jack620

Mal,
I'll take a #12 and #18 when they are ready.
Chris

Chris,
Typo on number 12, should have been saddle lock. Probably get to the saddle stop later on.
Mal

Originally Posted by pipeclay

But would the anal retentive fools buy or use them.

People love to buy little upgrades for their pride and joy - whatever it is.
They might not use them, but they are a market, bless 'em.
I once bought a nice brand new milling machine and lots of accessories at auction. The previous owner's hobby must have been buying stuff and putting it straight into storage.
I use them now (occasionally).

Jordan

Hi Mal I have contact with a fellow near newcastle who was into hercus repair some time ago, last time I spoke to him he said he had jigs and i think patterns for building hercus head stocks I've not seen this gear but as he is soon to clean out chuck out i've asked him to keep these aside for me so I could direct them to some one who might use them, I'm not sure what is happening with them at the mo but if you pm me I should be able to contact him and see where he is at with them. I love the idea of a new Hercus (Nercus?) and agree with the bigger spindle camlock path and also a more stable saddle hold down set up to make parting off less of a pain. I would like to hear any suggestions on parting practice on a 260. Put me down for a slotted cross slide too.

Just out of curiosity why do people think that a lathe similar to a Hercus of its time would be excessively expensive in todays market.

Originally Posted by pipeclay

Just out of curiosity why do people think that a lathe similar to a Hercus of its time would be excessively expensive in todays market.

Labour and material costs to produce it in Australia would make it expensive.

Originally Posted by pipeclay

Just out of curiosity why do people think that a lathe similar to a Hercus of its time would be excessively expensive in todays market.

Using Hercus' pricing for the last lathes they made, around $10,000 including the stand, inflation alone would bring this up to about half as much again if made now.
On top of that would be the extra cost of manufacturing now. Not many foundries in Oz nowadays, and wages are up. Sales wouldn't be as good as before I think, so the costs would have to be spread over fewer products, pushing the price up. And, we've gotten used to cheap machinery at cheap prices. On paper, you seem to get a lot more lathe for your dollar if you buy imports.
It may be that modern manufacturing methods would lower prices, but I don't think computerised machining centres would be cheap enough for low quantities?

My first lathe, a Taiwanese Lantaine, cost $2,500 when the Hercus 260 was $10,000 (which I hankered after but couldn't afford). It was pretty crappy in places but was bigger and good to learn on.
I replaced it with second hand metric 260 and imperial 9" - no need for transposing gears!

Jordan

Good to know peoples thinking, at least with these thoughts the idea of guilt for charging an excessive price would be justified.

Hi Mal,

I think the key to keeping the cost down is to be imaginative about how you design it, make it and what components you buy in.

DESIGN

I think many of the key points have already been picked up already:

VFD
D1-4 spindle

Other things to think about:

Thread and feed via "electronic" gearbox (no one seems to be offering this yet, the price point however must be getting close, there was a retrofit on offer a while ago called "The Frog" that did this, brilliant, you can cut any thread you like)

There are also many subtleties as to how Asian lathes are manufactured that don't impact on function but they do impact on manufacturing cost. eg. tailstock body to base fit on a hercus is second to none, but on most Asian lathes it's as loose as hell with a gib to push it toward the rear, all still works!

MANUFACTURE

For small volume stuff I don't think people make enough use of drilling jigs. eg. on an apron just machine the mating surface and bolt it into a drilling jig with hardened bushes, you can then use a pistol drill (or drills) and away you go. Capital investment is lower and the result is probably equal to the original.

For headstock and tailstock I would machine the bases, scrape them to fit and then mount them on an example bed and with a drilling and boring head mounted on a standard carriage. Again low capital investment and you have a unit that probably turns out components that are more accurate than hercus ever made (without more scraping and fitting).

BUYING IN COMPONENTS

I wouldn't be to shy or precious about doing this, particularly if it means the difference between go / no go. eg:

- You can purchase all the "bits" for a D1-4 camlock spindle for about $30, they are well ground and as hard as anything.
- I had some components made up in China recently that were similar to a tailstock quill, they cost about $25 each, they were hard, nicely ground and had laser engraving on them.
I would very seriously consider buying-in the spindle and tailstock quill in particular.

Regards,

Rick