Thread: new hercus 9 what is it worth

Originally Posted by rickw72

Hi Mal,


BUYING IN COMPONENTS

I wouldn't be to shy or precious about doing this, particularly if it means the difference between go / no go. eg:

- I had some components made up in China recently that were similar to a tailstock quill, they cost about $25 each, they were hard, nicely ground and had laser engraving on them.
I would very seriously consider buying-in the spindle and tailstock quill in particular.

Regards,

Rick

Hi Rick,
I take your point, but having heard a lot of horror stories from people who had components made in China and India, I would be very reluctant to take a chance on their ability to supply continuous high grade components. At least if a local supplier stuffs up I have some leverage to see it corrected. When you deal with countries who have no legal obligation to honour contractual arrangements you risk financial ruin. Call me an idealist but I want to support local industries, god knows we don't have much left these days.
As for the other things you mentioned, they are being considered for inclusion in the design.
Regards Mal
.

Originally Posted by nadroj

I thought the idea was to make an updated Hercus.
Something like this, made somewhere in Asia.
Grizzly.com

Jordan

Very Nice.

Originally Posted by nadroj

I thought the idea was to make an updated Hercus.
Something like this, made somewhere in Asia.
Grizzly.com

Jordan

Except for the spindle bore it is almost the 'perfect' lathe

Phil

The precision of the machine I had in mind, was one that would be ridgid and accurate enough for the home workshop. The general purpose bearings and slipper bearings of the standard Hercus headstock seem, from the little machining I have done personally, to produce results of a good finish and more than acceptable standard for most everyday applications. The strength of machines like the Hercus is their stability, durability and reliability. The fact that so many of these tools can last as a fully functioning piece for 80 odd years has got to say something.
From comments made by customers who have bought a Hercus from me to replace asian machines of similar size, it's the unreliability and inability these products to perform functions the Hercus takes in it's stride. I don't expect to produce a machine like the Shaublin, most people could not afford or need a machine of that quality, just a good reliable workhorse.
People who want to machine at micron levels should buy a machine that is designed to do that (and have deeeeeep pockets). If a Hercus owner takes the time to set their machine up properly, it will give good reliable service and more than acceptable results for the effort.
I like the Hercus number one because it's Australian and also a good honest tool. There are times, because of what I have to make and the precision required, that a more precise piece of equipment will be required and that is how it should be, but the Hercus will still be there sitting in the corner waiting to be used.
The little Hercus was good enough for my grandfather and with a little bit of care, will undoubtably still be around for my descendants.
There are many hundreds of Hercus and Sheraton owners on the website who will testify to the usefulness of these little machines and my hats off to them.
Mal

Originally Posted by nadroj

I thought the idea was to make an updated Hercus.
Something like this, made somewhere in Asia.
Grizzly.com

Jordan

Nice looking machine, not unlike the 260 in headstock design, agree with phil about the bore size and tailstock design could be better.

The Grizzly-SB headstock doesn't sit on the bed's V ways.
Good thing the chuck sticks out so far, or the toolbit wouldn't reach the job.
The original SB-Hercus layout has so many subtle good design points, like the ability for the winged carriage to straddle the headstock for good support and ability to get close up.
It also makes it easy to break down the lathe into manageable chunks for transport, and quickly get it reassembled and perfectly aligned.

Jordan

Originally Posted by nadroj

I thought the idea was to make an updated Hercus.
Something like this, made somewhere in Asia.
Grizzly.com

Jordan

The Grizzly 10k looks very much like a Hercus 260. It is made in Taiwan. But Taiwan is not exactly a low wage country anymore, with US$20k average wage. Hence the price of US$ +5k for the barebone basic lathe. Just one chuck, two dead centers, two wrenches and two changegears are included for that money.

Originally Posted by pipeclay

Just out of curiosity why do people think that a lathe similar to a Hercus of its time would be excessively expensive in todays market.

The appeal of these old lathes is partly the fit and finish, partly the quality of materials used. Both are vastly superior to what is made in China in the same size class. The reason for this is simple. Lathes like the Hercus (and many others) were once designed to be used industrially, like by factories to produce things. Whereas Chinese lathes in this small size class are not intended to run 8h shifts to make things. They are intended more for small repair shops in poor countries (think bike repair), and for hobby use in rich countries. When a Hercus was made to last something like 1500 running hours per year for a life of some 10 years, these Chinese lathes are at best intended to last 1500h in total.

Thing is, nowdays manufacturing is done on CNC centers, not manual lathes. It is difficult for a hobby user, to justify the expense for a new industrial quality lathe. That is why cut throat cheap machines made from molten soup cans are in high demand. And Papa Grizzly has a very hard time selling his pretty well made Taiwanese $ 5k+ SouthBend 10k. I cannot imagine anyone in Australia manufacturing something of similar quality for anywhere near that money, and still make a profit.

Chris

Hi Mal,

Buying in components:

I wouldn't go near India, but I have found the chinese to be quite reliable, and concerned about quality, and pretty easy to deal with. I wouldn't hesitate to go to them for any hardened and ground component. Agree with your sentiment about getting it made in OZ, but atleast it might help you get a start at a competative price.

Something to chew the fat on regarding the spindles: A mate of mine used to work for Sheraton. At one time they couldn't get suitable quality steel for their spindles, they ended up buying old railway wheel sets for the steel in the axels!

Other thoughts:

- Get yourself sets of "progressive" taps, these are simply fantastic. I accidentally brought a set (didn't realise they were). I do all my tapping with a dewalt cordless drill with torque settings, I tap hundreds of holes with zero breakages, and quickly !!

- The bed casting, this needs a lot of work, from my understanding, the original hercus lathes required 4 moulds to be brought together. Looking at most of the modern lathes, most seem to manage to do it with only 2.

Cheers,

Rick

Originally Posted by rickw72

- The bed casting, this needs a lot of work, from my understanding, the original hercus lathes required 4 moulds to be brought together. Looking at most of the modern lathes, most seem to manage to do it with only 2.

Cheers,

Rick

Hi Rick,
Fortuneately the foundry I am using is familiar with the casting of the beds, having done casting for Hercus in the past. You are right though about the complexity of the pattern, They tell me it was a bitch to work with and extremely awkward to disassemble . My patternmaker believes he can overcome this with intelligent use of coring, which is probably what the other makers do.
It will be an expensive if not financially impossible task to produce here again, however we'll give the costings a try and see what happens. Incidently the dial dies I spoke to you about have arrived and are about to be tested, I'll let you know how they turn out.
regards Mal