Thread: Some basic glue tests

Good stuff Claw And yet another good warning not to use polyurethane on any joints that will be under tension

Cheers
Michael

Hey Micyd, yep the more I use it for odd jobs here and there the more I think it's just a low expansion version of expanding foam. I have used Vise brand and now Sika (being a good brand in the building industy) and wouldn't use it for anything under tension or where you are relying on glue strength alone. Once the temp warms up around here thismorning I will stick them up again.

Thanks Claw Hama, very interesting. I am tending to use TB 3 for most things these days and Aquadere for small dovetail boxes and things where I need more open time during assembly. I was reading in the latest Fine Woodworking how to reduce nuisance squeeze out and got a bit worried that maybe the methods suggested, usually wetting only one part of the joint (for example the mortice in a M&T) might not get enough glue into the joint. Gluing up is certainly one of the things I need to learn more about and so I would be interested in hearing about any more tests that you do.

Wow. I've been using Selley's Aquadere Polyurethane for quite a bit of outdoor stuff on hardwoods, and after a couple of years I'm now seeing some joint failures . I only started using it because Australian Woodworker did a comparison along with Aquadere External (and I think a Titebond); the poly performed exceptionally well in their test (which was similar to yours Hama). I really liked the long open time too.

Nearly all the failed joints have been biscuit joints, my M&T's have had no problems.

Well, now that you've probably put me off ever using poly again can you recommend something I can replace it with? I like a fairly long open time, more than the majority of PVA's give you. I'm not a fan of epoxy because of the mess and the fact that I always mix either 5% too little or 300% too much!

I always wait till its dry these days and take it off with a sharp chisle or scraper

Good to see I am not alone.

Wiping off excess with water plays havoc with finishes.

Hi Guys, for indoor I used to use Triton PVA, I did some tests a few years back and it was the best at the time but it has since gone off the market. I then used Aquadhere in the interum but then went to Titebond Original. For water resistant jobs I have been using AV XL Plus, AVS was an Australian company but it is now under the Bostic label. It is a single pack self crosslinking PVA, as with most PVAs open time is about 10min at 20C, I think TB Original is about the same.
CT you may have to stage your glue ups, I try to glue up whatever I can do in 10 min clamp it up and then do the next stage. Doing smaller stages gives you more time to set the joint and make sure they are level, square, tight, etc. For instance if I do a table top I might only glue up two boards, clamp them and then do another set of two. Once they have gone off (min clamp time) I will glue those two together and so on. For longer open times I think Titebond has some (hang on, - - - he scoots to google) http://www.titebond.com.au/products/index.htm not sure who sells these in Aust but I imagine they should be available.
I picked up a bottle of the Woodloc PVA at my local new found hardware guy up the road simpley because it was $7/ltr and thought I would give it a try. On the first test it looked to do better than TB Original but as I said before it may not have clamped as well as the others. I will look at it closely on the next test. I glued them all up again today and will snap them sideways this time (rotary movement)
With outdoor things I generaly rely on the mechanics of the joint and either a dowel, coach bolt, bolt etc. I have used poly in the joints but it was more just to keep the water out rather than the strength of the glue. If I was relieing on the glue I would go for something like TB III or Selleys 308 which has a long open life but is a two part so you will have 5% to little or 300% too much.

Ok, battons were turned around and reglued, left for 72 hrs, this time I put them in the vice and gave them a thump with my hand, all hung on, then I gave them a whack with a large mallet, they all hung on, I then gave them a couple of big whacks with the mallet and got results. All the PVAs had near 100% tear out of timber and general splintering and failure of the timber. The only one of the PVAs not to have 100% timber tear out was the AV XL Plus but like in the last test where the Titebond Original did not have 100% tear out, the clamping may have been the issue. After this test I would happily use any of the PVAs from the cheapy Woodloc, which may have held the best, through to the more expensive big brand glues. Again as expected the polyurethane even though it took a good couple of whacks to dislodge still failed and had zero timber tear out.

Time to devise my next method of destruction not sure that I need to go any further though.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

Time to devise my next method of destruction not sure that I need to go any further though.

You've sold it to me. The stool I glued with poly, and broke was reglued with PVA (TitebondII) and is solid as a rock. Where do you get the Woodloc?

Cheers
Michael

THere is a guy literaly at the end of my street who bottles it and puts this woodloc label on it. I am going to pick his brains and see who makes it. He buys it in bulk so if you take your own bottle he will fill it for you. If you want some I could throw a bottle in the post but if I can find out who makes it you might be able to get it localy too or buy in builk.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

THere is a guy literaly at the end of my street who bottles it and puts this woodloc label on it. I am going to pick his brains and see who makes it. He buys it in bulk so if you take your own bottle he will fill it for you. If you want some I could throw a bottle in the post but if I can find out who makes it you might be able to get it localy too or buy in builk.

That'd be good to know. ATM I have two big bottles of TII to get through.

Cheers
Michael

I spoke to him today and he had just sent glue to Brisy, I haven't got the name of the manufacturer yet.

This info has me a bit worried to say the least . I used Selleys Polyurethane glue on a couple of projects, partly because of the working time, but mainly because I was told it was stronger, particularly on oily timber like I was using. If it's not as good as PVA on timber joints, what is it best used for ????

Originally Posted by TTIT

If it's not as good as PVA on timber joints, what is it best used for ????

Filling gaps.

Thanks for the tests CH. At least this can give us some confidence in most of the PVA glues.

Would be interested in devising some similar tests for end grain gluing, using Epoxy and Selleys 308 as well.

Yes, will continue testing soon, what sort of end grain joint are you thinking?
TTIT, I have just used polyurethane to glue down the segments on the leaf table, I needed something strong (but it isn't stressed), stable, gap filling so any gaps under the segments would fill to keep air and moisture out as much as posible. I could have used a bed of tile glue but I thought poly should do the trick. So far so good. I will post more pics of the leaf soon, I'm just finishing it off now. Its good to know what glues to use where. Its like opening the cupboard and selecting a weapon, what am I shooting, a mouse or a rino, is he wet or dry