Thread: what do you think of titebond liquid hide glue ?

Originally Posted by Woodwould

I reiterate; wedges in chairs usually point toward poor design.

I assumed WW was referring to chair design.
At some point in their life most chairs will have someone try to rock back on it. If they do, sooner or later either the glue will fail or the wood will fail. If the glue fails, hide glue is the easiest to repair, provided you can get the tenons out.

But good design can prevent, or at least discourage, people from rocking back on a chair. Locating the rear feet further back makes it difficult to rock back.

thanks for the links Woodwould

Hi Jake - sorry to be slow replying - I had a busy weekend. Apart from the yardwork, I got some time in the shed, & almost made something, for a change!

WRT costs for roll-your-own hide glue vs the liquid stuff. The difference would probably be peanuts in the long haul. It takes a while to learn to mix only what you REALLY need for a job - well, it's taken me about 40 years. But if you don't waste it, a kg of the stuff goes a heck of a long way. The good thing about it is that it never goes off if you keep the flakes/pearls in a decent sealed container. So if you subtract what you end up chucking out (of the liquid stuff) because it's out of date, the home-brew probably comes out miles ahead on cost.

I freely admit it was the perceived bother of having to fuss about with gluepots & keeping it all going that kept me away from hide glue for about 20 years (that, & the memory of the stinking gluepot down the back of the manual-training room in my school days!). However, once I decided to get back into it, it wasn't such a bother - just takes a bit more planning before & during glue-up (you have to step lively on a cold day). And the almost-instant grab of hot HG is very handy in many situations. Now I have the waxpot, it's almost as easy as reaching for the sqeeze-bottle of PVA.

I'm not a rabid HG-only person, I still use lots of PVA where it seems suitable, (& even with the waxpot, it's obviously a lot easier) but I always use HG on stuff I think might be around in a generation or two & might need repair at some stage (if there's anyone left alive then who knows how to fix anything....).

I second WW's assertion that no glue makes up for poor structural design, which is certainly the reason for most chair failures. And while there are some chairs from the past still holding up (including quite a few that I've seen which didn't use a drop of glue), there are an awful lot that went to the fire, too. Poor structural design isn't the sole preserve of the 20th century!

And Malcolm, I was aware that the mosquitoes were mainly stuck together with cascamite, and that it is a bit more water-resistant than HG on a soaking test. However, it is still a protein glue, and still mighty good tucker for a host of microbes, which can get going at moisture levels well below the softening & failure stage. It's mostly them what cause the damage over the long haul if the joints are allowed to get damp, or are maintained in constant high humidity. (Edit: If you're interested in this sort of stuff, there's an excellent story about the mosquitoes & their structural problems in this book: "The New Science of Strong Materials or Why You Don't Fall through the Floor"
J. E. Gordon. It's an oldie, but very readable).

Cheers,

I am that rabid HG woodworker and I use HG on anything of importance, but I recognise PVA has its place and I use it for building jigs etc. that will never see life outside my workshop.

I have used liquid hide glue to glue the dovetails of a silver cabinet together. I have found that, in Queensland's humidity and heat, the glue tends to be squeezed out of the joints and to form spherical bobbles 1 or 2 mm in diameter, which spoil the look and feel of the joint.

Over the last few years I have designed and built a number of chairs (see http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=73483 , http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=23053 , & http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=52275 )with variations on a zigzag theme, in which the stresses imposed on the joints during normal use are even more severe than those on conventional chairs where the sitter is tipping back. I built my chairs out of strong enough and thick enough hardwood to ensure the wood would not break under stress, and used 2-part epoxy on joints whose surface area was sufficient to ensure that the glue would not fail either.

I am not convinced by the common assertion that chair joints will inevitably fail eventually, and that therefore hide glue should be used to facilitate repairs. If chairs are made out of strong hardwoods such as jarrah, and they are glued with 2-part epoxy, I see no reason why they should not be strong enough to withstand even abusive treatment, and last several centuries without the need for repair.

Rocker

Originally Posted by Rocker

I am not convinced by the common assertion that chair joints will inevitably fail eventually, and that therefore hide glue should be used to facilitate repairs.Rocker

The issue is not that the joints will fail, but components of chairs can be rotted or eroded away (like the bottoms of legs), components can be damaged and seat rails can be burst due to people repetitively recovering drop-in seat squabs without removing the old covering etc. etc., all of which necessitate the dismantling of the chair. This is where HG comes in.

Woodwould,

I agree entirely that antique chairs built with hide glue should be repaired using hide glue. On the other hand, I remain unconvinced that modern chairs need to be built in the same way. The issues which you mention that affect antique chairs, such as the bottom of the legs rotting, as a result of the chair having stood on wet floors, are unlikely to affect modern ones. I suppose there might be a case for using hide glue in modern reproductions of delicate antique styles such as Sheraton, where the slender chair parts might break if subjected to rough treatment. But I see no reason why either the wood or the glue should fail in a well-designed modern chair built from high-quality Australian hardwood, glued with epoxy.

Rocker

Originally Posted by IanW

Hi Jake - sorry to be slow replying - I had a busy weekend. Apart from the yardwork, I got some time in the shed, & almost made something, for a change!

WRT costs for roll-your-own hide glue vs the liquid stuff. The difference would probably be peanuts in the long haul. It takes a while to learn to mix only what you REALLY need for a job - well, it's taken me about 40 years. But if you don't waste it, a kg of the stuff goes a heck of a long way. The good thing about it is that it never goes off if you keep the flakes/pearls in a decent sealed container. So if you subtract what you end up chucking out (of the liquid stuff) because it's out of date, the home-brew probably comes out miles ahead on cost.

I freely admit it was the perceived bother of having to fuss about with gluepots & keeping it all going that kept me away from hide glue for about 20 years (that, & the memory of the stinking gluepot down the back of the manual-training room in my school days!). However, once I decided to get back into it, it wasn't such a bother - just takes a bit more planning before & during glue-up (you have to step lively on a cold day). And the almost-instant grab of hot HG is very handy in many situations. Now I have the waxpot, it's almost as easy as reaching for the sqeeze-bottle of PVA.

I'm not a rabid HG-only person, I still use lots of PVA where it seems suitable, (& even with the waxpot, it's obviously a lot easier) but I always use HG on stuff I think might be around in a generation or two & might need repair at some stage (if there's anyone left alive then who knows how to fix anything....).

,

thanks Ian. your experiences are helpful.

I'm still on fence to be quite honest. the chairs I'm making have to be good, to catch the eye of those with the dough. generally people who know what their buying I'd say (whether it really means something or not)....uno, weather or not the chairs are repairable (hide glue). shellac. straight select grade timber or whathave you.

but...I like the idea of my chairs being able to live outside on the veranda. I've got the impression that I should avoid hide glue for veranda furniture. But, then I suppose people who are willing to spend a few hundred on one chair won't be leaving them out on the veranda.

I'm finding this difficult, because a chair thats glued together with say epoxy, is going to have a much less chance of needing repair (probably within our lifetime)....which is great......but as soon as it needs repair, you can't really restore it as it once was at least with the chair designs I'm doing.

Originally Posted by Rocker

Woodwould,

I agree entirely that antique chairs built with hide glue should be repaired using hide glue. On the other hand, I remain unconvinced that modern chairs need to be built in the same way. The issues which you mention that affect antique chairs, such as the bottom of the legs rotting, as a result of the chair having stood on wet floors, are unlikely to affect modern ones. I suppose there might be a case for using hide glue in modern reproductions of delicate antique styles such as Sheraton, where the slender chair parts might break if subjected to rough treatment. But I see no reason why either the wood or the glue should fail in a well-designed modern chair built from high-quality Australian hardwood, glued with epoxy.

Rocker

The glue is unlikely to fail as properly executed glued joints (either HG or PVA) usually prove to be stronger than the surrounding wood itself. As to how many modern chairs are either well designed or constructed from 'high quality' wood is another issue.

Another scenario is the one of chairs being broken through no fault of the designer or maker, but through rough or careless use. Handmade chairs are expensive and it would be a shame to throw one out just because it couldn't be disassembled for repair or replacement.

Some family friends bought a very fashionable and expensive Danish designer teak suite in the 1960s. They moved house during the late 1970s and the removers stacked a heavy dining table on top of the chairs. The chairs suffered several breaks and ended up being dumped because the joints couldn't be separated to affect the repairs. That, to me, just doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying there is only 'one glue', but using permanent glues for chair and furniture construction is very short-sighted.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

thanks Ian. your experiences are helpful.

I'm still on fence to be quite honest. the chairs I'm making have to be good, to catch the eye of those with the dough. generally people who know what their buying I'd say (whether it really means something or not)....uno, weather or not the chairs are repairable (hide glue). shellac. straight select grade timber or whathave you.

but...I like the idea of my chairs being able to live outside on the veranda. I've got the impression that I should avoid hide glue for veranda furniture. But, then I suppose people who are willing to spend a few hundred on one chair won't be leaving them out on the veranda.

I'm finding this difficult, because a chair thats glued together with say epoxy, is going to have a much less chance of needing repair (probably within our lifetime)....which is great......but as soon as it needs repair, you can't really restore it as it once was at least with the chair designs I'm doing.

Jake

Neither a bottle of liquid HG, nor a pack of UBeaut HG pearls will break the bank (and Neil gives instructions for a cheap glue pot that will be quite adequate for experiments in the Polisher's 'andbook - aka the Bible).

So why not make a couple of prototypes and put them on your verandah? I reckon it would be great advertising for your chairs and then you will have an idea of how your chairs stand up to the reality of the aging process.
Cheers

Jeremy

Jeremy has a point, although it would take a lot of years on the veranda for problems to show up, I reckon. If the weathering is severe enough to affect HG joints in the short-term, it certainly isn't going to do the finish & wood a lot of good! The main danger where the piece isn't getting truly wet is that high humidity will encourage microorganisms to start chewing away at the glue, but it will take a long time before they do enough damage to notice. Another option is to use cascamite, as alluded to above - it has pretty good water resistant properties & was recommended for semi-outdoor situations. I have had almost no experience of it, though, & not sure if it's still generally available. We used it a bit in the late 50's-early 60's with mixed success (probably due to mixing; improperly!).

Interesting reading the various responses in this thread. The school of thought that says epoxies will never need repair because they won't fail is a little hubristic, I reckon, and ignoring a few inevitables such as abuse & accidents. Granted, you can repair almost anything given the will, the time & the $$s, but even though I have probably only repaired a fraction of the furniture WW has, (& almost all of that not particularly valuable in $$ terms!), I have been very grateful for construction methods that allowed me to get things apart relatively easily. And I'm not sure where this touching faith in epoxies comes from, I have seen plenty of epoxy joints fail, too, & not always because the brew wasn't 'made right'. If the piece wasn't structurally sound in the first place, any repair is bound to suffer the same fate, no matter how well you make it. And who hasn't had to deal with the efforts of the 'handyman' who tried to repair a busted joint with several kilos of even worse material like panel-beaters' bog plastered in, on and around it? I read somewhere that no synthetic glue sticks to any other, or itself, once cured, & my experience certainly bears that out, but chipping it all off is not a fun project.

And the skeptic in me says that making furniture that relies on highly stressed, cantilevered glue joints may be pushing the envelope unnecessarily. Experience has taught me that most such joints fail sooner or later, & not always because of glue fracture. Over the last couple of thousand years we have figured out a number of ways to stick bits of wood together to make things that are useful, & as durable as the wood itself, both with & without glues, so we conservatives have our models....

Jake, I have the ultimate solution to your dilemma - what about trying some Chinese 'no-glue' joinery? You're always looking for new techniques to master, what's stopping you, boy, get busy!

Originally Posted by IanW

Jake, I have the ultimate solution to your dilemma - what about trying some Chinese 'no-glue' joinery? You're always looking for new techniques to master, what's stopping you, boy, get busy!

spose. I'm happy now making chairs.

What you up to at the moment in your shed ?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

spose. I'm happy now making chairs.

What you up to at the moment in your shed ?

Not a lot - damn day-job keeps interfering with shed time! And with the good rains this summer, the grass, weeds & trees round here seem to need twice as much attention as in the last couple of years.

When I do get a few minutes to myself, I've just been pottering, doing all sorts of little jobs - got about 6 things on the go, all stalled at various points because I need to get something, or the next step requires a bit of thought (& that takes time!). So that's why I've been sharpening saws & fiddling with small jobs like the hatrack I made for the boss on Sunday. She's been asking pointed questions lately when I disappear to the shed for 1/2 an hour at a time, but nothing seems to come out for her inspection - she just doesn't find a sharp saw as interesting as I do! So I thought something better get finished. I enjoyed actually making something from start to finish, for a change, so had to write about it here:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=85759

Anyway - I'm taking some decent holiday time this year, &looking forward to some long hours of quality shed time in January (if it's not too hot) and finishing some jobs like the Maple fall-front desk I started more than 3 years ago. The Maple is some of the wildest-grained stuff I've ever seen, so my #4 Clifton is going to see some heavy use. I intend to French-polish it, though I doubt I'll be doing too much polishing in this weather. If I do get it finished, I'll probably just seal it with a brush-coat & leave it 'til the weather is cooler & drier.

Cheers,

like the look of those silky oak joints there Ian.

one day to yourself in months ! Your going to have to make more time for yourself somehow I think. Just not right.