Thread: Non toxic, biodegradable wood glue.

I know they use casien in milk paint of course. Maybe you could see if Porters paint have anything?

Looking at that site it looks like the glues are more like rubbery contact cement type things. Not really suitable for laminating. Rubbery glues have to much creep anyway and the piece will de-laminate.

I've read that the glue of choice for plywood used to be albumin (egg white) based. It isn't suitable for exterior or damp locations.

Ron

Why not use PVA? It's non-toxic, biodegradable (slowly) and less of a PITA than hide glue

Hey All,

Thanks for your recommendations. Regarding PVA: since my first post I have also found out about it's biodegradability (although the internet does throw up some conflicting evidence) but yes it does seem to be biodegradable, so that is great - it will satisfy both the non toxic and biodegradable criteria. It is still made from petroleum, which I'd love to get away from at some point, but it makes a great start.

So if any other contributors do know of aussie casein suppliers do chirp in. (I will also check out Porters)

Thanks again,
Neil

Since I've started using hide glue I find, for me, it's less of a PITA than PVA.

Ron

Seriuolsy Neil do you have the faintest idea of what you are asking.

regardless of any of the other issues, where do ya recon you will find someone prepared to fiddle about making plywood out of any of the...frankly inferiour glues.

The thing that makes plywood actually viable is the glues we use to make it.

Those mostly are urea formaldahyde and resoursenol.

The critical thing with getting the strength and consistency in plywood revolves arround the high pressure, heat and those glues.

If you have some sort of vague idea about being green or close to the earth.....oh hell the glues are the least of your problems.

If you are worried about the use of petrolium products......Oh hell......the miniscule amount of fossil fuel contained in the glue will be nothing compared to the amount used in the harvest, milling, woodworking and transport of the timber its self.

Serioulsy if you are having a view to being, all hippy and...like.....back to nature......plywood aint the material for you.

I know lots of people have got a big downer on formaldahyde......but as far as glues are concerned, it is pretty biodegradable......it is afterall, UF glue, half made from urine.....this is why it is not suitable for outdoor use.
Even the formaldahyde its self is a natuarally occuring organic substance and breaks down very quickly in the environment.

Formaldahyde seeping out of our furniture & building products and poisoning our houses, has been very much beaten up.....modern board manufacture is designed to minimise free formaldahyde remaining in the finished product and that remaining is disipated reasonably promptly if the product is left in open air.

Most of the problems with Formaldahyde and problems in human habitation have been from people moving into freshly renovated or built dwellings....far less of a problem in the last 10 or 15 years, because of the way formaldahyde is controlled in products.

There continue to be issues with formaldahyde in foams...in particular on site pump in foams that are not perhaps as well controlled as in a factory.....if manufactured foam is left in open air the formaldahyde soon disipates.


Be happy that timber is one of the true renewable resources we have and by using it to make furniture you are sequesting carbon in the timber for the life of the furniture.

cheers

Use epoxy. That's non-toxic (boatbuilders can use epoxy to make potable water tanks), and given time and exposure to direct sunlight, it'll break down from the UV. As a bonus, indoors it'll generally last until you throw the furniture out so it's not going to limit the life of the piece.

Hi All,

Thanks for your input. From the further research I have done PVA seems to be pretty good in the biodegradability terms, and a local glue manufacturer here advises that in a hot press it will cure in ~10mins, so a cooperative custom ply shop shouldn't find it too difficult. And yes, there does seem to be some sounds made about UF being biodegradable but I haven't found proper data yet around whether the end products are toxic/persistent... If anyone has good links on that please let me know.

To those who assume the hippy stereotype - I can assure that I have neither dreadlocks nor bad showering habits. I think I'd probably describe myself as more of a techno-optimist. I believe we need to move towards an economy which has both organic and technical nutrients being recycled endlessly as decribed in Cradle to Cradle by W McDonough (no dreadlocks there either I believe). Anyway, its worth a read. Those companies who embrace change and move towards less polluting system will ultimately be the ones who prosper. I look forward to a future powered by greenhouse free energy, clean transport, and wooden furniture which can nourish the soil at the end of its life rather than poisoning it - whether that happens to be in a hippy's garden or a pine plantation.

Cheers
Neil

It's nice to be green, but be prepared to hand over your credit card at the door if you want someone to do a small, custom run of plywood.
That is, if you can find a plywood manufacturer who will: stop production, clean the machinery (probably involve completely pulling the glue spreaders and other equipment apart to clean properly), run a few sheets for you with a glue that is, frankly, inferior for the purpose, clean the machinery again (pull everything apart AGAIN), then re-start their line.

I commend you on your intentions and determination, but I don't see it happening. The main problem with PVA is that is doesn't cure, it sets. The formaldehyde resins used in plywood chemically harden and lock the layers together. It is a rigid bond that will not move or separate over time. When PVA dries it's still flexible and will allow the layers to move, expand and, eventually, come apart. Technology has moved on and found a better product, there's no reason to go back.

As an aside, here's some info on formaldehyde, including the environmental impact of its release: http://www.speclab.com/compound/c50000.htm and a full study on human exposure here: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp111-c5.pdf
Interesting note from the first link: "about 80% of the slow-release fertilizer market is based on urea-formaldehyde-containing products", so it can't be all that bad for the plants.

Many plants produce formaldehyde as part of their respiration, so green isn't all that green. Some people have been found who exhale formaldehyde at levels higher than the level permitted in a workplace.

I think if you can work out a way to use hide glue for laminations you'd be just about set. Just stop the dog licking the glue pot!

Originally Posted by neilfaraway

Hi All,

I am wanting to build some indoor desks using plywood (trying to achieve strength in 2 directions with minimal thickness) but want to make the object so its non-toxic and can eventually degrade back into the soil. This would seem to exclude the common formaldehyde glues.


So the search is on for an alternative glue that I can have a custom laminator use to form some sheets... I have read a few previous posts here, but they are a little old and have led to dead ends..


Animal hide glues are one option, but at this point I am primarily interested in casein glues - from my research these are strong and while they may come under attack by mold, it seems there are natural antibacterial additives that can be used to slow this down (http://www.auropaintindia.com/produc...oduct29c7.html)


My questions are:
does anyone know of any casein glue suppliers in Australia?
does anyone have any experience with casein and in an indoor environment is there a general expectation of lifetime before fungal/mold attack? (I'd be looking to use an oil on the external faces)
any other suggestions given my situation and what I'm trying to achieve?


Thanks in advance for your help.
Neil

Hi Neil

I think you are completely on the wrong tack.

For a normal sized writing desk, you will struggle to make a top with ply that is thinner than what is achievable with quarter cut sold timber.
No need to muck about with non-standard glues making custom ply

If the design brief requires strength in 2 directions and minimal thickness you should be looking at a torsion box.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse but are you looking for a glue that degrades at the same rate as the timber or just assuming that eventually the desk is another throwaway item? What is the timeline you are working on?
If you really want to tread gently on the earth you need to be looking at the total input (much as Soundman has said)