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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.
    You would have very little through the plate extraction, you would have very little fence extraction if you were combining say a 4" hose into the fence from a larger connection into the enclosure.

    Again as I said earlier, it depends on your definition of dust extraction, a vac or small DC connected in the normal way to the typical old style below table dust enclosure will not have a chance in hell of starving the router, although some people have reported problems with heat without the DC running, not everyone is running a triton, and again a 3HP or larger DC running hard line to a 150mm port with a very short 150mm flex connection into the cabinet with a redesigned intake is a different animal altogether.

    No one needs to build their table like mine, I'm posting this as a source of discussion and shared ideas and for those of us who have a real problem with wood dust and cannot enjoy woodworking if we have to wear a face mask 100% of the time, I don't need a mask with this table, and trust me when I say that normally I can't make a saw cut in piece of pine with a hand saw outside in the open without instant sinus. Dust extraction is not about a clean table for me, it's about capturing the invisible dangerous fine dust as much as possible at the source (the router bit).

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.
    Yep, but over the years on this forum and others you can see plenty of people raising issues of Triton routers getting sawdust into the works and causing big problems. Yes doing the dust extraction right will minimize the risk, but for the sake of a few minutes to put in a snorkel it would be worth it for some of us. It would depend on the rest of your setup, how much use it will get and how long you want your tools to last.

    Cheers

    DOug
    Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice.

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Some photos of all your modifications, above and below, would be appreciated. It would make it easier to understand your aims and objectives.
    I totally agree, however the test table top was such a mess by the time I had finished that photos would have been problematic, I'm now into redoing the new top so pictures will be taken as I do that and I'll post in a separate thread.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.
    BTW barri, I don't think there is such a thing as a stupid question, we are here to help each other and I try to be as helpful as I can and hope I get the same in return, it's just request for more insight IMHO. We are all learning here, when you stop I think it becomes boring.

    Doug added the info about dust getting into the router, I forgot to include that.

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandJ View Post
    BTW barri, I don't think there is such a thing as a stupid question, we are here to help each other and I try to be as helpful as I can and hope I get the same in return, it's just request for more insight IMHO. We are all learning here, when you stop I think it becomes boring.

    Doug added the info about dust getting into the router, I forgot to include that.
    Hi

    Router tables are notoriously difficult to keep clean, however, they are also one of the most useful components of a modern workshop. Any collection system requires occasional intervention in the form of a blow out with compressed air, hand cleaning etc. There really isn't a perfect solution.

    The Incra Clean Sweep has proven to be a great accessory with zero performance complaints over the years but there are plenty out there who have dismissed them as 'flawed' without even seeing one in operation. Everything including overheating and being too small are put up as reasons why they don't work. In reality when used with an adequate extractor Clean Sweeps both aid in keeping things clean and reducing noise.

    Re: the Triton router, years ago mine blew up while I was using it 'hand-held' to make speaker boxes. The cause dust build-up on the circuit board the culprit lack of housekeeping on my part. I believe that these PCBs are now encapsulated to avoid this issue, but a puff of compressed air doesn't go astray.

    Yes! we're all health conscious but we also need to get in and make something...... that's what our workshops are for.

    Happy Routing.

    Regards

    Grahame

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwhat View Post
    Hi

    Router tables are notoriously difficult to keep clean, however, they are also one of the most useful components of a modern workshop. Any collection system requires occasional intervention in the form of a blow out with compressed air, hand cleaning etc. There really isn't a perfect solution.

    The Incra Clean Sweep has proven to be a great accessory with zero performance complaints over the years but there are plenty out there who have dismissed them as 'flawed' without even seeing one in operation. Everything including overheating and being too small are put up as reasons why they don't work. In reality when used with an adequate extractor Clean Sweeps both aid in keeping things clean and reducing noise.

    Re: the Triton router, years ago mine blew up while I was using it 'hand-held' to make speaker boxes. The cause dust build-up on the circuit board the culprit lack of housekeeping on my part. I believe that these PCBs are now encapsulated to avoid this issue, but a puff of compressed air doesn't go astray.

    Yes! we're all health conscious but we also need to get in and make something...... that's what our workshops are for.

    Happy Routing.

    Regards

    Grahame

    Hi

    A table saw is what I would class as notoriously difficult to keep clean, followed by sanders, lathes and bandsaws etc. With a router table you have a relatively small cutting head and the opportunity for real "at the tool" dust extraction (not withstanding high rotational cutter speeds and associated collection problems), but conventional plunge router design, table mounting and other standard router table accessories make it difficult to optimise dust extraction.

    There is nothing - none - zero dust in my below table pickup or the router and only the occasional chip on the table, I never have to blow out my WW equipment (those with modified dust extraction) with compressed air and I'm assuming that those that do are wearing a quality dust mask when doing so.

    That often used quote that we need to "get in and make something" is almost a "don't worry be happy" kind of dismissal of those of us who have a real interest and question current extraction system designs - NOTE - I am in no way suggesting you meant to imply that, but that line has been used before and that is how it always comes across to me at least.

    Discussing it on a forum takes more of my time that actually building and testing it. I think that after years of "making things" I can devote a few hours to building a better router table dust extraction system that meets my needs.

    BTW I agree that the Incra Clean Sweep with purpose built insert rings can work better than the standard user built clones of the old below table cabinet extraction, and it may indeed be all most users need.

    From my point of view, the whole point of the discussion of router table dust extraction is to throw around ideas, discuss different extraction designs (yes! there will always be different opinions - right or wrong - on some commercial products and designs) but hopefully along the way, we gain a better understanding of dust extraction and equipment, but some of us will always ask the question - is there a better way?

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandJ View Post
    is there a better way?
    Big suction!!!!

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    Big suction!!!!
    Yes but to expand on that just a little for those who are new to dust extraction, it's only a starting point as big suction is wasted unless you can actually modify the way we currently pull dust into the enclosure and fence, and I think I posted this before, Incra, when designing the Cleansweep, created a modified set of zero clearance insert rings to allow better pickup with the cleansweep enclosure, and it works and was a step in the right direction.

  10. #54
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    I, for one, believe the term "zero clearance insert rings" is a misnomer and gives the wrong impression when referring to router inserts. Incra cleansweep comes with 6 rings instead of the 3 that normally come with a Kreg insert, but they are by no means zero clearance. They reduce the clearance between the inner ring and the bit on one hand by having more sizes but they increase the airflow by having extra openings.
    Just my observation

  11. #55
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    MandJ and Doug, I'll think you'll be proud of me for what I did this morning.

    20170102_120255.jpg

    Just attached the hose to a dust port, all friction fits. You'll notice that this hose is taking "fresher" air from the bottom compartment. Is this fresh enough or should I duct this hose to the outside through the back of the cabinet? I'm not sure I could be bothered doing any more on this.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    I, for one, believe the term "zero clearance insert rings" is a misnomer and gives the wrong impression when referring to router inserts. Incra cleansweep comes with 6 rings instead of the 3 that normally come with a Kreg insert, but they are by no means zero clearance. They reduce the clearance between the inner ring and the bit on one hand by having more sizes but they increase the airflow by having extra openings.
    Just my observation
    If the rings are covered by the material being machined then there can be no air flow and if partially covered then less air flow of course no matter how the ring inserts are designed.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    If the rings are covered by the material being machined then there can be no air flow and if partially covered then less air flow of course no matter how the ring inserts are designed.
    Absolutely correct in it's current form, even when using the fence, but when you are using it and it's not covered by the work it should be designed to work to its full potential.

    Again, I won't be using insert rings or zero clearance rings or a router plate or anything like the current router mounting designs - I'm sure I've already said that, and obviously, that is only one path for DE at the router bit, and it's obviously only applicable for certain routing tasks, but it still had to be modified to work to it's full potential AND IN CONJUNCTION with through the fence extraction. With a rethink of RT DE design, the task of dust extraction can transition from "through the plate" to "through the fence" efficiently and with each actually complementing each other, which is not the case with most current implementations. IMHO each is designed independently and in an impaired fashion, often working against each other.

  14. #58
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    You know, I'm think I'm just better off dropping this here and now, and when I get the time to rebuild the DE and table I'll post a few pictures for anyone who may be interested.
    I now realise that my attempt to describe what I was testing without corresponding photos or drawings was confusing, so apologies to all for that

    In parting, I know that manufactures can do DE in a far better way, and I'm under no illusion that anything that I / we could come up with hasn't been thought of years ago, of course it has, but just like bandsaw dust extraction, manufactures are constrained by costs and the way current designs have evolved over the years, and of course the accessories that have evolved around them. More importantly IMHO, there is the willingness of customers to pay for something that most could, in reality, care less about.

    EDIT - I really should clarify that last bit - I'm talking about the average consumer here, not those of us keen enough to join a forum and certainly not anyone on this forum

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    If the rings are covered by the material being machined then there can be no air
    The only time I see that happening is if you are boring a hole or running a stopped dado but I can see your logic. When I look at the tasks I do on a router table, the majority do not have the router bit totally clear of the fence therefore the ring is not totally covered.

    and if partially covered then less air flow of course no matter how the ring inserts are designed.
    From my observations when using the Cleansweep inserts, partially covered, they will allow more air flow than my standard Kreg inserts due to the extra air vents

  16. #60
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    I wonder how a gridded top surface would go? Dados would be open to the DE and would solve that problem. The grid would only have to be in a specific small are to be effective.

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