Thread: 1000 c f m

Like Bob I also have two fans to vent my shed, although exhaust type not squirrel cage. Like Bobs' mine were also rescued from a skip bin, you take what you can get at those prices! I totally understand what Bob is saying about squirrel cage fans, having previously owned a motel the had over 50 double ended ones in air handling units for air conditioning. They can move a lot of air, but if you have a dirty filter in front of them all they're really doing is pointlessly using electricity.

Ventilation fans should definitely be an integral part of any recommendations to come out of all this.

Does anybody know of a 3HP single phase machine that has an 8" inlet, appropriately sized outlet and an impeller larger than 12". Barry mentioned a Leda CT-213 earlier in the thread. Looking at the pics and specifications for this machine it doesn't appear to have the equivalent of the 8" inlet on the outlet side (can't really tell from the pictures) and it still only has a 12" impeller. What's the point of having an 8" inlet if the machine is constrained by the outlet and the size of the impeller? Of course this could be dictated by needing to protect the motor from overheating, but surely they can do better.

If there is a machine out there that meets these parameters would it be possible to run two cyclones in parallel to the one extractor? This is something I had considered trying with my DE.

Cheers,
David

I just checked the data to date on this thread.

In less than 1 week 91 replies and 2,104 views.

in may be possible to manipulate the amount of replies with multiple posts, but get 2,000 views?

Take a bow, its been an entertaining week, I once taught basic electronics to a weekend class, boy did I learn a lot. get the student's attention and hold it for two hours, not easy.

Julius S***Miller? a physic teacher genius.

Life is a great teacher, I learn more each day and realize how little I know.

Cheers Barry

Originally Posted by aldav

If there is a machine out there that meets these parameters would it be possible to run two cyclones in parallel to the one extractor? This is something I had considered trying with my DE.

Surely one larger cyclone would be better? but if you are looking at using the cyclones you sell but putting in two so that it is less of a chokepoint than one of them, it would probably work - inefficient and cumbersome but it may work.

I am considering the other way around - running two 2hp impellers pulling through the one cyclone. If i go ahead with hthis I would not expect the equivalent to a 4hp machine as each individual 2hp impeller will only pull a certain pressure which will be lass than a 4hp machine.

Why I am considering it is because a single 2hp impeller is not utilizing the full potential of a 6" duct but by adding a second impeller it may boost it up another 300-400 cfm maybe?

Cheer

Doug

Does any one have a Fern house/shade house next to their workshop?

Fern house's are often fitted with dripers, spayers, or misters.

If I had something like that, could I direct the output of a squirrel cage fan into the fern house when the misters are operating?

Dumb question .Barry it's your workshop, providing it's legal you are able to do many things.

What would be achieved in terms of dust levels (fine indivisible) inside and outside the workshop?

Cheers Barry

Originally Posted by doug3030

Surely one larger cyclone would be better? but if you are looking at using the cyclones you sell but putting in two so that it is less of a chokepoint than one of them, it would probably work - inefficient and cumbersome but it may work.

I am considering the other way around - running two 2hp impellers pulling through the one cyclone. If i go ahead with hthis I would not expect the equivalent to a 4hp machine as each individual 2hp impeller will only pull a certain pressure which will be lass than a 4hp machine.

Why I am considering it is because a single 2hp impeller is not utilizing the full potential of a 6" duct but by adding a second impeller it may boost it up another 300-400 cfm maybe?

Cheer

Doug

I did ask BobL a similar question recently,I will check back, another for the FAQ?

Cheers Barry

Read this and see if that answers your questiom
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/tandem-dust-extractors-idea-172318

Then again if you had an old rain water tank laying around you may consider having your lathe against the outside wall of your workshop with the squirrel cage fan on the wall above blower out through the wall into the rainwater tank, before going into the WaterScrubber-Fernery.

Sounds like a project for a Men's Shed to consider?

Every time I go to our shed, I am asked for my latest brainstorm invention, needless to say I give back as much as I get.

Cheers Barry BobL did you get any goodies as per PM?

Originally Posted by aldav

I, for one, am not aware of one (well not at an affordable price anyway) - the thing would have to be 1200mm high and 800mm in diameter, would almost certainly be made of steel sheet and weigh a ton.



Cheers,
David

What is an affordable price?

BTW I introduced Clearvue to this country so I do have an agenda which I will expand on after the above question is clarified. I am not the importer these days but I did do all the hard yards to get it here despite some on this forum telling me that I was wasting my time and it was not necessary to use a cyclone as any DE would do the job.

I can't help thinking after reading the posts in this thread that the best solution is to save for a Clearview. Sure, it doesn't com fully assembled and in my case it was necessary to build a muffler along the lines of the one built by the Corrimal Mens Shed to get the DB's down. Yes, it probably cost $1200 dollars more than one of the 2HP. 4 inch models but it was worth saving for because I have ended up with a system that works and best of all no bags or filters to clean.

I knew very little about woodworking before joining this forum but have found it a great resource. I was steered in the right direction by people like BobL, Chris Parkes, John Samuel. N.C.Archer and others. The forum is such a great resource of Knowledge.

Are Clearviews even sold? The website is a basket case.

Originally Posted by mannum3

Does any one have a Fern house/shade house next to their workshop?

Fern house's are often fitted with dripers, spayers, or misters.

If I had something like that, could I direct the output of a squirrel cage fan into the fern house when the misters are operating?

Your fern house contents, floor and garden beds would be constantly covered in muddy sawdust, this is not a good look for a fern house and a nightmare to clean up.
Every time you wanted to use the DC you'd have to run water and I would then class that as a waste of water.
On really hot days this would blast a lot of hot air through the fern house and probably kill the ferns.
I don't know about others but can't really put the contents of my dust extractor anywhere except in the bin.
The dust that I make also contains MDF, treated wood, metal, plastic, paint, glue, floor dust, rust and grinder grit etc

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

What is an affordable price?

Hi Chris,

Well the answer to this depends on to whom you're talking. I know many members on the forum use machines they have purchased second hand. I have two 3HP twin bag machines, one with canister filters, that I purchased for the grand sum of $320 all up. A lot of members have very limited resources to put in to their hobby and I dare say there are members who wouldn't have a single piece of equipment that isn't preloved.

The Clearvue CV1800 is an excellent product and I applaud your effort in establishing it in the market. I KNOW that that isn't easy regardless of how good the product is. Brand awareness, consumer confidence and sales momentum are almost always painfully slow to build up. Currently the CV1800 sells for over $3,000 and that is without the VFD required to run on 240V. Is this affordable? To some, yes, to many others, no. You could hardly blame a hobbyist for wanting to buy some machinery to hook the DE up to before they buy the DE. What came first the chicken or the egg? In this case I don't think there is any doubt.

Cheers,
David

Since there are still a whole heap of unanswered questions in this thread I thought I would pitch in and provide my 2 cents worth based on the research and work I have carried out to date on improving my dust extraction system. The underlying theme from many posters relating to achieving the magical 1000cfm is dust extraction target is “is this realistic, and how do I get there?”

In response to the first part of this question I would say it definably achievable but it my opinion it should not be treated as a strict necessity. I believe this figure can be treated as the ultimate goal on a journey that may never be completely fulfilled, and that the enormity of the objective should not put people off taking the first steps towards a better outcome.
Given that everyone’s situation is different, there is of course no strict recipe of how to go about this, rather I’ll focus on suggesting improvements that can be made by what I think is the average woodworker working out of a shed or garage in a suburban environment. So here are some of the things that you could try starting with the cheapest /easiest and progressing towards some ultimate goal.

1) If you don’t plan to do anything more, please at least get adecent dust mask. Spend a few hundy and get the best particulate mask you can afford. It won’t improve your woodwork experience but it will provide a better level of protection to your health.

2) Get a bigger dusty. If you currently have a 1HP dusty, tryto upgrade to at least a 2 HP unit. If you are looking at upgrading to a 3HP unit, make sure that it has a 13” impeller. Many 3HP dusties only have a 12”impeller so the only advantage they have over a standard 2HP unit is that they have bigger collection and filtration bags so can be used longer between bag changes and filter cleans.

3) Enlarge machine’s dust ports and ducting to 6”. If you currently have stock 4” dust ports on your machines or any 4” ducting then any improvements to your collection may have little effect as ducting airflow is controlledby the system’s most restrictive part which will likely be this.

4) Replace elbows in your ducting with swept bends. These are available over the counter or you could do what I did and make your own ‘lobstertail’type bends from mitred and butt jointed straight PVC pipe.

5) Reduce the amount of flex ducting you have. This stuff is a real cfm killer so anything you can do to reduce the amount will improve the systems airflow.

6) Do the mods to your dusty as suggested in BobL’s The Generic2HP DC posting.

7) Put your dusty outside. The extra cfm returned from some of the suggestions above will hopefully compensate for the extra ducting required.

8) Throw your filter bags away and get a decent full size cyclone.I’m only aware of a few ways of doing this :

- Bite the bullet and buy a Clearvue. This machine sets the standard and depending on the value you place on your own time, it possibly presents better value than the DIY suggestions made below.

- Build your own cyclone. Bill Pentz website has all the infoyou need to do this.

- Check out Muchacho's full size fibreglass cyclone hereand here . (YesI know, it’s me. Please accept my sincerest apologies for my shameless plug.) The mark 2 version was produced in responseto the large amount of interest originating from the posting about theprototype. I run mine on a hotted up 2 HP fan but I see no reason why it could be connected to fans upto 15” of 16” to get Clearvue matching performance.

One of the issues with running a cyclone without filters and exhausting outside will be related to actually penetrating the shed wall or roof which some will not be able to do for various reasons. Some ways to minimise the impact could include placing the outlet in a panel to slot into a partially open window, replacing a window pane or sash with a semi-permanent panel including the outlet. I know BobL will hate this idea, but simply having the exhaust as a larger dia flex and shoving it out the window or door will also work. There will probably be some recirculation of fine dust from this, but it will be a better result than doing nothing and keeping a dusty inside.

9) Fan selection can also be a journey in itself, potentially starting with the fan from the dusty you currently use with a new cyclone and upgrading when or if required. Some options and ball park performance figures are recorded below. The cfm estimates have been taken from the performance tables on the Cincinnati Fan website. These tables are essentially fan curves for all sorts of fans with various impeller and intake sizes. I’d recommend this to anyone who is trying to estimate their current of proposed fan’s performance.If you are using this, make sure you use the tables for the fan running at 2850 RPM.

- 2HP / 12” fan. I have run proper airflow tests which show it is good for between 800 cfm down to about 600cfm at 3” static pressure when connected to my machines. These figures arewell below what is recommended, but at this stage it is good enough for me. When finances permit I may look to replacing the fan with something better.

- 3HP / 13” fan. According to Cincinnati Fan, with an 8” inlet this fan will hit the 1000cfm mark but only for SP to about 2”. In a real workshop situation you could get 800 cfm down to about 4” of static pressure which I would be very happy with in my small shed.

- 4HP / 14”. The hunt now starts to get harder. The only place I’ve seen one of these at a reasonable cost is on a dusty called a OAVExtractor Model SDC4043A. Although single phase, this will require a 15A supply which could provide issues for some. There’s probably a 3 phase version which would run with a VSD off a 10A supply. According to Cincinnati Fan, with an 8” inlet this fan will hold the magical 1000 cfm down to about 6” static pressure.

- 4HP-5HP / 15”-16”. This is where it gets really hard. Second hand fans salvaged from baghouse machines maybe available or homemade fans could be a source. The hardest part of this exercise would be making an impeller although I have noticed that a certain wellknown US cyclone manufacturer advertises their impeller for sale separately. You could build the fan housing without too much trouble following Bill Pentz’s instructions.

So folks, there it is.Improving your dust extraction is achievable. I doesn’t need to cost as much as a good second hand car, but it does need some work. I will definitely support Evanism with his suggestion in this thread for an open sourced project. I can supply agood cyclone, does anyone have any ideas for a decent fan ?

Sorry for my ramblings, I trust it has answered some of the questions raised and especially hope that it promotes some more robust discussion.

Regards, Tim

Originally Posted by Evanism

Are Clearviews even sold? The website is a basket case.

Evan the home page appears to have been hacked so you have to bypass it and go straight to a product page to get any info. They have my sympathy.