Thread: Alternative Dust Extraction Solution

The major problem with that particular unit is the cone length, it is way too short to get good dust and debris separation. Having said that it is better than the one you haven't got at the moment. The linked unit is three phase BTW, you could get a VFD and speed it up which can only help. If the price is over $2000 I would question the wisdom of buying that against a CV.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

The major problem with that particular unit is the cone length, it is way too short to get good dust and debris separation. Having said that it is better than the one you haven't got at the moment. The linked unit is three phase BTW, you could get a VFD and speed it up which can only help. If the price is over $2000 I would question the wisdom of buying that against a CV.

Chris,

I agree it is not as good as a CV for dust extraction, but.....

- if it will fit in my woodshed this will be a major advantage
- it is already setup, including the chips/dust collector

I will not have 3 phase so will need a VFD but am comfortable with having to sort that out. The fact my brother is a sparky also helps.

Appreciate your input and our chat the other day

cheers

Mick

Mick, you can't run that unit from a single phase power point as you would be able to with a CV as it is 415 volt, the CV runs on 240 volt three phase.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Mick, you can't run that unit from a single phase power point as you would be able to with a CV as it is 415 volt, the CV runs on 240 volt three phase.

It depends on the motors internal construction as some motors that are advertised as 415V will still work on 240V 3 phase
If the motor is capable to being Delta wirable it will work equally well on 3phase 240 V AC via a VFD.
To see if this is possible you will need to look at the motor specification plate and look for a Delta symbol.
If it Star wired the motor will need to be modified to Delta by a motor rewinder - this will no doubt void the warranty.
Some motors are very easily able to be converted between Star and Delta at the terminal connector box on the side of the motor in about a minute.
I have bought 4 of these in the last year.

How do you propose that Mick does all the above without buying it?

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

How do you propose that Mick does all the above without buying it?

Look on the motor nameplate or ask the dealer to send him a photo of the motor name plate.
If it says 240 delta or the greek triangular symbol for Delta (240V ∆) on it he is OK - and would stay within warranty.

This is an example of a nameplate that does not specifically state it is delta wirable but the UVW and L123 connects and the 240V reference means it is



It might even state only 415V on the motor plate but it may still be easily delta wirable but without taking the cover off the connector box he won't know
When 6 individual terminals are available like this this is almost always a delta wirable motor.



This motor connector box shows the Delta/Star connects on the back of the connector box cover.


I guess it depends how well one can sweet talk to the sales people as to whether they are prepared to take the cover off.

Good luck with that Mick.

Bob and Chris,

thanks for all of the above. In my naivety (not the first time of course) I thought the VFDs did the full conversion from single phase 240 volts to 3-phase. I did not realise that the motor still had to be capable of running at 240-volts (which just shows how much I know about electricity and motors). I'll take another trip out next week and check the actual size and motor as well as take some photos of the motor. My brother is a sparky so I'll talk to him as well. I still think it is less than 50-50 it will fit in my woodshed which I won't be able to work out for 2 weeks when I am up there again.

cheers

Mick

Mick, I realize that the second shed is not high enough for a Clearvue but to house a CV does not take a fancy shed at all. I reckon a shed could be built for very little money, maybe $300 that would be perfectly adequate. A metre square floor of bricks or even an old pallet, a minimal frame and put some ply on the frame, the power has to be run anyway so that is equal in both.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Mick, I realize that the second shed is not high enough for a Clearvue but to house a CV does not take a fancy shed at all. I reckon a shed could be built for very little money, maybe $300 that would be perfectly adequate. A metre square floor of bricks or even an old pallet, a minimal frame and put some ply on the frame, the power has to be run anyway so that is equal in both.

Or ... install the CV at an angle of 45 degrees.

Originally Posted by BobL

If and when I go for a cyclone, even though it will need to be located outside the shed I will also need to deal with the height problem . One possibility is to dig out a recess in the ground and line the recess with plastic. Preventing it filling up with water will require a little bit of thinking but shouldn't be rocket science.

I have just found out that there is a user in the USA who mounted his cyclone on an angle to fit it in a lower roofline. I am trying to get in touch so I can find out jhow this affected the operation of the unit. I will keep you informed.

Shedman

I am posting to this thread because my opinion was asked for by the original poster.

Firstly I was one of those that got in on the first flush of cyclone building on this forum nearly 10 years ago.....there where literally dozens of us that built Bill Pentz cyclones of one size or another.
I built a small 50mm input prototype that I still have and use.

There are a couple of very real issues with cyclones that are a deal breaker for me.....and these issues are unavoidable.

1/ Cyclones represent a large suction loss....it does not matter if the cyclone is blown or sucked the losses are substantial.
IF you are going to install a cyclone and " achieve magic numbers" you will be paying for a blower twice, or may be 3or 4 times as powerfull as you would need if you where running pleated cartrige filters.
THIS IS AN UNAVOIDABLE FACT.

2/ Cyclones are HUGE.....I worked out how tall the optimum cyclone would be for my full sized application....nearly 4 meters tall including a waste bin as big as my single bagger has....this is for a 100mm input cyclone
The optimum size of the cyclone is determined by the size of the input hose.......reduce the size of the cyclone from ideal and either or both the extraction efficiency or the suction efficieny suffer.
THIS IS AN UNAVOIDABLE FACT.

3/What comes with the whole cyclone thing is the ducting......because of the size and expense, very few hobyists will be coughing up for or building more than one cyclone.

Of course with all this ducting comes more cost, more work and the unavoidable losses that come with ducting.
So just to push the ducts you have to pay for an even more powerfull blower.
So you now have to pay for a blower that is may be 4 to 6 times as powerfull as a standard extractor for the same airflow at the end of the pipe.
I remember us all admiring Biting Midge's beautifull duct work......that house has been resumed and a freeway built over it.
Other I know have moved and leaft their ducting behind.


These three issues alone make a cyclone a non winner for the majority of us.
Then there is the noise and the power supplies needed to drive the much more powerfull blower.

There are very good reasons the vast majority of industrial dust extraction have gone away from cyclones.

In the nearly 20 years that I have been seriously into woodworking the cost of pleated cartridge filters has plumeted. As has the cost of the dust extractors themselves.
The use of pleated cartrige filters increases the airflow of any dust extractor over a bag.

I know the BobL bangs on about Invisable dust......but for the majority they never get past dealing with the very visable dust.

We hear people talk about capture efficiency.........there are some machines where pretty good efficiency can be achieved.....others well.....appart from building a sealed box arround the machine good dust capture efficiency will never be a reality and PPE will remain necessary.

Looking at commercially available bag type dust extractors...with or wthout pleated cartridge filters......these things are so cheaply available these days there is no reason to do without.
AND because they are so cheap you have to question the economic viability of any ducted extraction system.

ALL the commercially available bag type extractors are designed to run close to the machine.....their blowers are not designed to run long duct systems because they do not and can not achieve high static pressures.
They are low pressure high flow systems that are designed to run close to the machine.

There is absolutly no point discussing the type of blower.....in these machines that are pretty much all the same, heavy straight bladed cintripital blowers designed to handle big chunks.

As for making sweeping statements about how many RPM the motor does.......a blower can be designed to work efficiently on a motor of any available rotational speed.........a blower will be designed differently for a 1440rpm motor than a 2280RPM motor......if a blower has been designed arround a given motor running on a 60Hz american power supply it will be considerably disadvantaged on a 50 Hz australian supply......particularly if it is a highly optomised blower.

There are efficiencies that can be gained on these machines with little work and very little cost and the items that come as packaged in the box can be assembled in other ways than the manufacturer intended.

One of the biggest efficiency gains in the single bag extractor is by changing the connection between the blower and the bag assembly.

My 1.5 Hp extractor flows more air than most 2Hp extractors of similar design because it has a much larger hose and a smoother air flow between the blower and the bag......check the various offerings a look at this.

In the last few years there have been some far more efficient designes that flow much more air for less blower power than the older types of extractor.

One improvement would be to simply remove the curved corigated hose ( and some times accompanying restrictions in transitions) and feed the blower via a short straight pipe into the bag assembly.......in fact this is exactly what some models have.

If you are concerned about dust being recirculated in your workshop, it is pretty commonly accepted that putting the extractor outside is a simple and effective solution.....I know pletty of people with lean-to dust shead or garden shed dust anexes.

What some people don't think about is pulling the dust extractor appart and mounting the blower inside, punching a single pipe thru the wall and putting the bag and filter outside.

by the time you have coughed up for a cyclone and all that accompanies it, you could have baught a couple of single bag extractors, run very short ducts and have time and money left over.

Sorry I have built a cyclone, I know exactly how effective they are......I would not build or buy another, regardless of how much money I had.

As for the Clearview.....to put it bluntly...why would you buy a machine that requires extra cost, buggery box because the motor is not designed for the australian electrical system.

Stay away from the cyclone and long ducts and the costs just plumeted...even if you buy two machines.

cheers

Originally Posted by soundman

As for the Clearview.....to put it bluntly...why would you buy a machine that requires extra cost, buggery box because the motor is not designed for the australian electrical system.

Stay away from the cyclone and long ducts and the costs just plumeted...even if you buy two machines.

cheers

Just what is needed, someone trying to destroy someone else's business and livelehood. Well done Sound Man, let's here three cheers for him,

Soundman,

Different strokes, I suppose. We like what we like, because we like it.

You make some valid points. A cyclone does need some extra power, so far as I can see it is less than 1 HP for a good cyclone. Compare a good cyclone with a 2 or 3 HP dusty for the proof of this, but to go to some length to point out the fact that a cyclone needs more power without also pointing out the benefits is a bit one sided. Some cyclones are largish, but all those I have seen are smaller than a 3 HP dusty and some are similar in size to a 2 HP dusty. ClearVue cyclones are tall, rather than huge. Mine takes up the same floor space of a standard garbage bin, far less than a 1 or 2 HP extractor, let alone a 3 HP monster. Finally, you are of course correct to state that ductwork is necessary with a cyclone.

I wonder about your comment "4 to 6 times as powerful as a standard extractor for the same airflow at the end of the pipe". This is not my experience. A 1 HP dusty is about as handy as a hip pocket in a singlet when compared with a good cyclone. Some 2 HP dustys will do a reasonable job, but only if one does not mind dragging it around the shop with a short length of flexy to connect to machines. A 2 HP is not quite up to creating good airflow through ducting. True, a ClearVue uses a 4 HP motor, but in terms of air volume and velocity, it makes a 1 HP system look like a toy and is far superior to even the best 2 HP dusty, both of which I have some experience with. I have never used a 3 HP dusty, so will leave comments on them to others. My linisher and drop saw were dust devils before I got the ClearVue. Now they are tamed.

This morning I grabbed my step ladder and took a close look at the top surface of my ducting. There is a very thin film of dust on the ducting, but given that it and the ClearVue have been in service for over a year, and that the ductwork has never been cleaned, I am a happy chappie.

I had a couple of single bag extractors, and was not happy with them. I looked carefully at my options and in the end bought a ClearVue. Now I am happy. Dust collection in my shop is very good, far better than with a 2 HP DC. I have a ducted system, which is what I wanted because I was weary of dragging the dusty around my shop. Maybe I am just lazy, but a ducted system suits me, and I believe the cost of the ducting to be worth the convenience. Others will have different priorities.

It seems to me that nothing is good or bad until one states one's objectives. My objectives were:
1. 4,000 fpm, to avoid clogged lines and at least 1,000 cfm at the working machine for good dust collection. The research supporting these numbers is overpowering.
2. A small footprint. Nothing comes close to a ClearVue for its tiny footprint.
3. A ducted system so I was not dragging the dusty around the shop. Maybe I am weird, but I dislike mobile dustys and like ducting.
4. A system that vented outside (no bags or filters). Maybe I am lazy ... maybe I don't like filters ... maybe even the small amount of dust that got through the filters bothered me. It does not matter. I want what I want, and I wanted to vent outside and I wanted minimum maintenance.

With my old single bag extractors in service, when I blew my nose at the end of a day in the shop, my hanky was reddish brown after use. Now it is clear. Now I breathe clean air.

Visitors to my shop like to put their hand into an open duct to compare the airflow with their systems. So far, every one of them has been surprised at the suction the ClearVue creates. Not all cyclones are this good, of course. Even running at 50 Hz the CV sucks 2X1 off cuts up the riser over my table saw and into the ductwork. At 60 Hz it creates about 20% more airflow. For my money, the VFD I bought gave me the cheapest 20% boost to suction I can imagine. The CV Max is specifically designed for those countries that operate on 50 Hz ... like Australia.

I understand you are not a cyclone fan. That's fine. You may have different objectives and priorities. You certainly are looking at different data to me when you say, "you will be paying for a blower twice, or may be 3or 4 times as powerfull as you would need if you where running pleated cartrige filters.
THIS IS AN UNAVOIDABLE FACT." This is not my experience, nor is it what the data I have seen indicates.

I love my ClearVue, and have never regretted the cost. In fact in my case the ClearVue was the cheapest option that met all my objectives. My only regret was that I bought the 1800 rather than the Max. If one wants effective dust collection ... both chips and fine dust ... easily the best small shop solution is a ClearVue cyclone.

Have any of us ever found a ClearVue owner who wished he had stuck with a 1 or 2 HP dusty instead? I have not, nor do I expect to find many such people in the future.