Thread: The balance between Dust Extraction and PPE

Face mask and scuba tank - (wall mounted).

Forget dust extraction - just create a self contained breathing environment!.

If your air from your compressor comes from outside the shed and you filter it well - maybe forget the wall mounted scuba tank and just use a hookah hose direct from your air compressor.

When finished - air hose yourself down, before removing the breathing mouthpiece and hold your breath till your outside of the shed!.

In theory you should never ingest any dust from turning at all.

Course your mask may fog up... but there's treatments you can apply now to the inside of the mask for that...

Or just wear a clothes peg on your nose and normal safety goggles - face mask and a scuba reg & air hose from the compressor.

I'm not saying I have done anything like this... but it's a possibility to maybe consider at least.

Others mileage may vary - using a mouthpiece you (or someone else - yuk ) slobbered all over all day yesterday might be a bit gross.

Cyclones looking better every day - eh!

I agree this is a good one to discuss.

I currently use a Paftec Cleanspace 2 powered respirator. The filters are rated P3 which (as best as I have worked out) are as good as you can get. This cost me about $550 with the silicone mask. I am very gald I have it but would certainly prefer not to wear anything. However, I have been working in a carport with no other dust extraction and am about to move where I will have a real shed. As I have been cleaning up my current space, I have decided I am going to 'do my best' to capture at source and ventilate what I can't. I don't want a shed where I should put on my respirator everytime I walk in. Also, I have a 4-year old grand-son who likes to help so I want to limit the risk to his health.

I am reasonably happy that I only used the powered respirator when I had a very open workspace but will be much happier to have good dust extraction (even if I sometines require the respirator) in the new shed. I am expecting to spend maybe a couple of hours per day in there for many a year to come so I consider the investment for me to be worth it.

cheers
Mick

PPE isn't just limited to dust control. It includes eye, face etc and ear protection. And there will always be compromises. For example, wearing ear protection while wood turning is not a good idea - you won't hear the fatal tell-tale signs (tick-tick) of a separation about to happen. And yet you need DE happening at the same time with all its associated noise.

PPE for dust has it's own problems. As Bob L. pointed out, particularly with wood turning, your smock, clothes etc get covered in fine dust. Somehow you have to remove the clothes etc, shower before you remove the PPE. And somehow clean your workshop of all that fine dust. And "dead" areas of your workshop will act as a sink for the fine dust that you will stir up when you walk through it without PPE.

I think it is true that the reason why hobby woodworkers now have access to "pro" gear like table saws etc. is that the manufacturers are giving us old technology. The design of my Minimax CU 300 Smart combo machine is decades old and it produces a lot o fine dust in all modes. Same as my new Sawstop TS. To say nothing of router tables and Triton gear in general.

There are some fixes. Bigger dust chutes. More HP. Modified DCs. Cyclones. Air scrubbers. Outdoor ventilation. Adequate ventilation via swampy AC's. PPE.

No silver bullets there for all machines eg. my woodwizz. So I guess we do what we can (and can afford) to limit the risks. But my heart is still breaking that I have to cut a chute into my Sawstop TS I can tell you! I can only hope that the next owner of the machine understands why I did it.

Good discussion. Thanks for starting it Colin.

Seems that it does not matter so much how we beat the dust issue, so long as we do, and so long as we do a good job of it.

As several posters have indicated, there is more than one way to skin a cat. A 4 HP cyclone is wonderful, for those who are able and willing to spend the loot, but what about a bloke who is only an occasional woodworker who still wants to protect his health when he picks up his tools four or five times a year? Perhaps for him good PPE is the ideal solution.

Even woodies with a very good dust extraction system find situations where that system is less than excellent. From what I gather, lathes can be one of those situations. Routing can be another. Perhaps in these situations we still should be considering PPE.

BobL once posted the formula, Total Risk = Time X Exposure Level. It struck me as a good guide. The dustiest thing I do now is routing rebates for cabinet backs. Even with a shop vac hooked up, it is a messy process. We can use a fan and cross ventilation as well as a dust mask mask for the few minutes this job takes. Perfect? not for a second. But if good ventilation is combined with a dust mask, and if the exposure time is short, the risk is kept very low.

Whether we use effective dust extraction, PPE or a combination of both does not really matter, so long as we understand the issue and effectively protect ourselves, and by extension, our families. My understanding of the problem came late. As an apprentice I was never taught dust control with woodworking and can recall finishing the day with snot that, as Soundman says, could have been used as plastic wood. In fact I was shown how to cut fibro with both a hand and a power saw (it was suggested we keep a separate handsaw and power saw blade for this purpose). In those days it was considered that girls and sissies used PPE. So I did not understand the real dangers of wood dust until I was approaching 60 ... perhaps too late. One of the reasons I am so keen on very good dust extraction or protection is the hope that (in particular) the younger blokes here won't make my mistakes.

At the risk of being repetitive, it does not so much matter how we do it, so long as we do it well. To my mind that involves understanding how even small amounts of very fine (sub 10 micron) dust can be dangerous. If Colin chooses to use good PPE rather than a dusty, that's fine. Effective PPE will keep his lungs clean. That's what matters.

Cheerio!

John

I guess what might worry me, would be working with say a filter respirator - on say MDF with a router or say spindle moulder (shaper) for profiling over long periods.

Yes maybe the filter is rated to remove the sub micron (<10) invisible dust and my lungs are protected that way, HOWEVER - does such a particulate filter - remove the out gassing vapors from the Urea Formaldehyde glue used to manufacture the MDF?

If it lets air thru to breath - (i.e oxygen, nitrogen and CO^2) then its also letting formaldehyde gas thru & into your lungs which is FAR and away more dangerous to your lungs than sub 10 micron fine or invisible dust particulates (and getting up there with the attendant risks from asbestos fibers).

Formaldehyde - Material Safety Data Sheet

Inhaled:

Toxic if inhaled.

Will cause severe irritation to the nose, throat and respiratory system with effects including: Dizziness, headache, in coordination, chest pains, coughing, ***respiratory paralysis and or failure***.

Your PPE isn't going to protect you from these very nasty vapors.

Gee dizziness and inc-ordination while working around power tools and machinery capable of cutting your limbs off.

Doesn't seem like a safe form, of glue to use in a timber product designed to be worked over power machines does it?

But

"Always remember to wear your PPE people!".

Whereas a cyclone with sufficient suction, could have one port left open to scrub the air inside the factory, thus (If externally vented) removing those insidious vapors - that your PPE will allow straight thru - unless your wearing a clean force fed air supply of some kind.

Depending what material your working (i.e no vapors from natural timber for EG) your PPE might be perfectly adequate (or not in the case of MDF chip/particle boards etc).

How UF (Urea Formaldehyde) hasn't been banned yet as the adhesive for man made fiber boards has me flummoxed.

Mark my words - in time to come when all the asbestos risks are gone, and young workers start dying in droves from respiratory problems not unlike mesothelioma - man made particle board manufacturers will get class action sued by union lawyers, just like James hardy did over asbestos.

But not until wood workers wake up & the medical studies are conducted....perhaps another generation yet.

Smoking will kill you? quite possibly, - but Formaldehyde definitely will, only "it will preserve the evidence!" (It's used as an embalming fluid for good reason). When they dig you up in 100 years your disease riddled lungs will be perfectly preserved like an Egyptian Mummy!

But at least you'll have set a good example - probably buried with your PPE on including the filter mask.

Its the vapors man.... the vapors I tells ya!

My 2c

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

I guess what might worry me, would be working with say a filter respirator - on say MDF with a router or say spindle moulder (shaper) for profiling over long periods.

Yes maybe the filter is rated to remove the sub micron (<10) invisible dust and my lungs are protected that way, HOWEVER - does such a particulate filter - remove the out gassing vapors from the Urea Formaldehyde glue used to manufacture the MDF?

If it lets air thru to breath - (i.e oxygen, nitrogen and CO^2) then its also letting formaldehyde gas thru & into your lungs which is FAR and away more dangerous to your lungs than sub 10 micron fine or invisible dust particulates (and getting up there with the attendant risks from asbestos fibers).

snip ...

Its the vapors man.... the vapors I tells ya!

TT,

Agree with your assessment of the dangers of Urea Formaldehyde.

The masks used when spraying in my shop have activated carbon filters. According to the literature I read, these give a high level of protection against Urea Formaldehyde vapours, which is one reason they were chosen. Is your understanding different? I don't use a lot of MDF, but have so far been under the impression that my activated carbon filters (and the CV) were protecting me. If I am wrong, it would be nice to know now.

Cheerio!

John

Slightly(or maybe a lot) off topic but I was looking at Lowe's on line catalog and noticed that the price for 8x4 3/4" birch plywood was $44.50 in America. Here it is around $150. I would use a lot less MDF if I could get ply at round that sort of price.

Originally Posted by safari

Slightly(or maybe a lot) off topic but I was looking at Lowe's on line catalog and noticed that the price for 8x4 3/4" birch plywood was $44.50 in America. Here it is around $150. I would use a lot less MDF if I could get ply at round that sort of price.

So would I, but plywood is still made using Urea-Formaldehyde adhesive.

The MDF worries me sufficiently enough to wear a mask. But of the wrong kind it seems. Not the same procedure when I cut (it appears foolishly) lots of HMR 16mm melamine without a mask for kitchens. And I go through it by the pack lot of 30s or 60s each year. I suspect the stuff they put in the particle board to make it HMR isn't good for you in much the same way as MDF? I better get that spare cyclone working in a hurry. I wonder how much I've already ingested?

Jefferson.

20 years of kitchens with HMR and MDF I got so bad I ha to have 10 years away from it before I stopped coughing blood.

All we had was a old woodfast 2 hp dusty inside the factory - with bags that leaked etc.

I would literally shovel the dust out from the altendorf panel saw at the end of the day and suck it all up with the dusty... bags full per day.

Sadly, Dad fared worse than me, succumbing to pharyngeal (throat) cancer some 8 years ago now.

You guys do what ever you think is right for you. I just know (after lung xrays with the states asbestos diseases expert Dr Bill Musk showing a spot on my lung) - that for me, I don't have the option other than to get this right or not work wood ever again. My tolerance levels are waaaay lower than anyone elses. ~10 years ago (after 20 years at it) I started coughing, until I vomited and then blacked out due to respiratory distress - the moment I got out the door of my car at the factory in the morning and that was before I opened the roller door to go inside the factory to start work.

I think most of us can maybe cope with a certain amount but eventually if you don't manage the vapors properly you become sensitized to it.

I also had taxidermy deer heads on the wall at home (being a deer hunter and deer farmer) and even worked with formaldehyde as a kid mounting big marron on boards etc and injecting it into them to dry up the flesh and preserve it.

So I had exposure to it from say 11 or 12 years old, at home and then later at work.... so I probably got the worst of it earlier in life than most (~ my early 40's).

I KNOW this crap will kill you from hard won experience - but others may have to come to this conclusion on their own.

I do NOT know if an activated carbon filter is effective in absorbing or preventing formaldehyde vapors in a PPE face mask situation (I actually didn't read the MSDS form that far - as too suitable PPE - whats recommended).

I Also becaise I had the deer farm - I was expoased every year to large quantities of urea when I would load a couple tonnes and spread them on the paddocks during the spring flush...and the urea also out gasses large quantities of nitrogen gas...

So I seemed to cop the double whammy from Urea on the farm and Urea Formaldehyde at the factory - we even used liquid urea formaldehyde glue for some years until we went to all epoxy resins instead, very late in the piece.

I guess i was the quintessential crash test dummy for Urea Formadehyde exposure.

When I was a kid and started messing with these chemicals computers and MSDS safety sheets hadn't been invented yet.... I honestly didn't know any better - same as when i was a kid we knew nothing about the dangers of asbestos - I played with it in its raw state at Whitnoom and helped Dad cut kilometers of super six corrugated asbestos fences to a string line with a friction disc millers falls power saw without any breathing apparatus.... ever.

I figure my days are probably numbered no matter what I do... I am probably the poster boy for bad safety habits in terms of respiratory protections... a childhood of competition swimming every morning and afternoon breathing chlorine gas...

If I make 60 it wil be a flamin miracle... 55 would be good! (I'm 54 already).

I hate to se young blokes not treating saw dust (well formaldehyde vapors) seriously.

I wouldn't wish my lung condition - on a monkey on a rock!.

I read the last post and it caused me some distress. I just hope everything works out OK. Here's hoping.

Having also worked in the cabinetry/joinery industry, I can assure everyone that no matter how many thousands of dollars one might spend on dust extraction for the home workshop, at the end of the day you will, at best, only end up with a clean workshop. For less than one hundred dollars you can buy a broom and a proper fitting P2 (or better still P3) mask with replaceable filters that will do a lot more in terms of preserving health and well being. Workshop ventilation is also a critical component. Extraction is important (as toxins from dust can also leach through your skin), but correct PPE is essential. No-one likes wearing it, but it's the only real effective solution.

Craig

Until I read this thread I was thinking a CV was good enough. Thick as!! Can you recommend a good P2 or 3 mask please CMB?

Thanks

Originally Posted by safari

Until I read this thread I was thinking a CV was good enough. Thick as!! Can you recommend a good P2 or 3 mask please CMB?

Thanks

Safari,

I think the CV will do the job, unless perhaps you are doing very large volumes of work with panels containing Urea Formaldehyde or other nasty stuff.

Total Risk = Time X Exposure Level.

My system does an excellent job of grabbing the fine MDF dust. The airflow is awesome. So I am confident most of the vapours are being captured as well. That reduces the exposure level dramatically. Because I don't do a lot of work with MDF etc, the time of exposure is also low. So I asses the risk in my shop as very low, so long as the CV is used. I wear a mask with carbon activated filters only when doing a dirty job, such as hand routing (which uses the vac for extraction, not the CV), which is very rare.

At this stage I reckon that providing we have good airflow, and in particular, well designed ports, that we need not fear MDF with the possible exceptions of blokes who are cutting pallets of the stuff or who are doing work that produces dust and fumes not captured by the CV.

This is a pic of my bandsaw. Some wag on this forum said he thought it was a "plumbing accident". It has three 90 mm lines. One to the cabinet; one between the cabinet and the table, and one over the workpiece to do final scavenging. Dust capture is brilliant, but so too is capture of fumes. I know this because when I cut camphor laurel on my machines I can't smell it whilst the cuts are being made. All that lovely aroma disappears into the ducts. For me, the "camphor laurel test" is an important part of the assessment of extraction efficiency.

IMAG0036.jpg

The next pic shows the state of the table after about 15-20 cuts through about 300 mm of MDF. It is spotless. If airflow is high, and if capture of very fine MDF dust is good, the capture of fumes is likely to be good as well.
IMAG0037.jpg

I am not an OHS expert, but I find it difficult to believe that under the great majority of circumstances that fumes of any kind are an issue in my shop. When on the odd occasion I reckon exposure levels might be higher, I slip on the mask for a few minutes and run the CV to ventilate the shop.

What this issue does highlight is the need not to take any "rough enough is good enough" approaches. Again, port/hood design is critical.

Cheerio!

John